RE: [TruthTalk] Paradise and Salvation

[ShieldsFamily]

yes   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:37 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Paradise and Salvation   Rochester NY? ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: God bless your trip, Kevin.  My husband spoke at a meeting in Rochester this past Thursday eveninghe said its still chilly there.  Yesterday my older son called and offered to drive me to visit younger son, Todd, at his new house outside Memphis for Mothers Day.  I was standing there pretty much covered in plaster and paint when he called, but of course said okayso Im off sometime today.  Izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:07 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Paradise and Salvation   I am saying one must be Baptised with the Holy Ghost which occurs at the time one is saved Titus 3;5-7 I am also saying there is no special annointing with the Holy Ghost, just a matter of how much one wants to yeild to the things of God. If you have not the Hoply Spirit you are NOT a Christian. The point & the posted scripture says we receive the Holy Ghost ABUNDANTLY. So how does one, as DM believes, receive More Abundantly? I was FULLY Baptised into the Holy Spirit and Regenerated & Renewed on Dec 12 1972    I will defer on the rest of the question as I am out the door, heading to Rochester. This does deserve a longer discussion please remind me if I forget. I do not avoid questions. It is just a matter of Time. In the last week I have preached in Memphis Tenn (900 mile drive one way). Preached in Syracuse ( 3 hour drive one way- thank god for Chauffers sp? just kidding  ; )  Worked 4 days (installed over 6 TERABYTES of Disk) Did a interview & preach on FOX news in Ithaca NY and one radio interview. I think I left something out but can't remember. ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Okay, Im trying to sort this out.  It seems that Kevin is saying that one must be baptized in water to be saved, and rejects the idea of being Baptized in the Holy Spirit.  Am I right here, Kevin?  Do you also reject the gifts of the Spirit, such as speaking in tongues?  It seems that David Miller says that Baptism in water should be obeyed, but is not necessary for salvation.  He believes that one can receive a deeper infilling of the Holy Spirit by being baptized in the Spiritcorrect?  If so, David, what is the advantage/difference between Believers who have received that Baptism of the Spirit and those who just have received water baptism and believe and follow Christ?  Do you both agree that you can disagree on this and still be saved? Izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:01 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Paradise and Salvation   Titus 3 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Your Theology says some got shed on more ABUNDANTLY than others. If one has not the Holy spirit it is as simple as "he is NONE of His" David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: David Miller wrote: >> There are many who are saved who have >> not yet received the Holy Ghost. Kevin wrote: > Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, > if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if > any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none > of his. This is one area where we must be careful not to depart from context. In Romans 8:9, he is speaking about whether a person is being led of the Spirit or being carnal and walking in sin like the previous chapter, Romans 7, described. All believers are called to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and so this assumption is carried forward here, but such does not deny any distinctions that can be made between when a person experiences being born again and being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Being baptized into Christ is a work of the Spirit but it is not identical to being baptized into the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ, but Christ baptizes us into the Holy Spirit. These two different works are meant to go hand in hand, but they do not necessarily happen simultaneously, as many passages of Scripture teach us. One passage that helps illuminate this concept is John 14:17. John 14:16-17 (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Notice that Jesus teaches us how the apostles here knew the Holy Spirit as opposed to the world which did not know him nor even see him. A little later in John 15:3, Jesus makes it clear that they were already born again by saying that they are clean. Yet there was another work of the Holy Spirit which they had not yet experienced. There was another level of intimacy. So in this passage, Jesus draws attention to this by using the phrase, "he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." The word choice here is helpful in making the distinction, but I should point out that other passages speak of the Holy Spirit being in people who had not yet experienced this baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is now informing us about (e.g., Gen. 41:38, Ex. 31:3, Num. 11:25, Num. 27:18, 1 Sam. 16:13, Isaiah 63:11, Eze. 3:24). Therefore, we cannot make absolute distinctions using the words "with" and "in." In this way, language tends to fail in communicating the distinction, but we can understand through context and comparison of Scripture with Scripture what is the truth. Acts 8 gives us an example of how Philip preached in Samaria and baptized new converts, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until later when Peter and John came down. Such gives us a clear distinction how a person can be baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ but not yet be baptized by Christ into the Holy Spirit. When we read Acts 19 and Paul's question to the Ephesians about whether or not they had yet received the Holy Spirit since they believed, we come to understand very readily that in those times just like now, many people come to saving faith in Christ but have not yet experienced the fullness of the Holy Spirit which is promised them. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye SHALL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost." The implication here is that while the gift is definite and all those in Christ will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, it might not happen instantaneously at the same time when they repent and are baptized. In summary, while we might find some difficulty nailing down these spiritual concepts with specific absolute words, the understanding of these different spiritual works (being born of the Spirit and being baptized in the Spirit) is readily discernable. Jesus speaks of "sending the Spirit" at a later time, yet he also speaks about how the Holy Spirit was already in contact with them and how they already knew the Holy Spirit. These are not contradictions but simply different concepts being illuminated through different contexts. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!