I don't believe Jesus was at this time using Himself as the example Caroline; remember He was born in Israel under the Law and his culture at the time tax collectors and pagans were ostracised and made outcasts which is similar to what Paul counselled the Corinthian Church to do with the man who refused to repent of his moral issues and accept correction. Paul advised turning him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh with the hope that he would later repent and his soul would be saved....
 
We've not learned this lesson and this is why we are not receiving a whole lot from God.  Under the Old Covenant everyone was expected to follow the Law which is our friend rather than an enemy; God's Commandments arn't grievious... and yes forgiveness is paramount if we want to walk with God.  jt
 
On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:59:14 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Step 4. and if your brother refuses to listen to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
 
Step 5. and how did Jesus treat pagans and tax collectors? He did not expect them to be able to follow the law and be righteous. He loved them and ate with them. And they enjoyed his presence.
 
Then Peter asked Jesus, how many times am I suppose to forgive my brother? Seventy times seven according to some manuscripts. Then Jesus told a parable that tells us how much we've been forgiven and warns us against unforgiveness. Interesting sidebar: the moral of the story was not - you've been forgiven much so you better be good! but you've been forgiven much so you ought to forgive those who sinned against you.
 From: Kevin Deegan
 
IF Johnson is a Christian and that is a big if
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus outlines three steps to take in talking to your brother, in dealing with unrepentant sin.

STEP 1 GO TO YOUR BROTHER: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

STEP 2 BRING OTHER BRO's WITH YOU: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

STEP 3 TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

He  ignored all three of these. What a example of a Man of God! Did any of these guys come to us as commanded by the scriptures? NO Instead of following the scriptures, and bringing it before the Church, Mr Johnson went right to the news Media and used our reputations as his springboard into a bigger more profitable ministry. A friend of mine interviewed on radio an associate of Mr Johnson. When asked if he tried to do MT 18, said he came down to the temple but could not find us. ROTFL what a liar. Maybe we are not as loud as some claim. And those 6 foot by 4 foot banners over our heads are not easy to spot!

SINCE MR Johnson and his friends ignore MT 18 I think it only fair for us to follow thru on what he did not. We have attempted to talk to them as outlined and should now treat him as directed "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Looks like I'm not the only Christian who felt bad about what happened at the LDS conference
 
Winning Them Softly
Evangelicals try to reach Mormons with respect—and hard science.
By John W. Kennedy | posted 01/16/2004

After years of ineffective and often acrimonious evangelism by various preachers and groups, a new coalition of evangelical clergy in Utah is attempting to treat Latter-day Saints (LDS) with respect.

Many orthodox Christians have denounced LDS theology throughout the church's history. Not surprisingly, leaders of the 11.7 million-member Salt Lake City–based church have expressed both resentment and distrust.

At the LDS semiannual general conference in October, adherents of the Utah chapter of World Wide Street Preachers Fellowship stomped on underclothes that LDS members consider holy. They also pretended to blow their noses and wipe their bottoms with the garments.

Three dozen evangelical leaders condemned the actions.

"You don't take what is sacred to another faith and denigrate it," said Greg C.V. Johnson, who leads Standing Together, a Salt Lake City ministry to Mormons. "It doesn't take courage to treat a person you disagree with in a disdaining fashion."

Johnson said he has been trying to build trust with LDS leaders for nearly three years. James Ayers, pastor of Valley Assembly of God, and 22 other evangelical leaders gathered at a press conference to denounce the street preachers.

"You don't build any bridges with actions like that," Ayers said. "Our purpose is to let the community know that these people don't represent all Christians in the city. We believe people need to be treated with dignity."

Mormon-evangelical dialogue isn't new, but until now it has been limited in scope. Johnson has engaged in high-level talks with Mormon leaders, and he has received two letters of gratitude from LDS apostles for denouncing the tactics of the street preachers.

Civil discourse
He believes that evangelicals have a greater potential for influence if they refrain from criticism, and that civil discourse is an essential prelude to a breakthrough.

Johnson left the LDS 22 years ago, as a teenager, and now attends an Evangelical Free church. He is in the midst of a 14-city lecture tour with Brigham Young University professor Robert L. Millet. Johnson and Millet engage in a respectful conversation about their points of difference. Sometimes LDS and evangelical groups on college campuses sponsor the events jointly.

The street preachers criticized Standing Together members for failing to tell Mormons they are going to hell. But Ayers said Christians are instructed to love those outside the faith, not rebuke them. Ayers is disturbed that the street preachers seemed to be consumed with anger toward Mormons. Ayers said a number of nominal Mormons have started to attend evangelical churches recently in search of spiritual meaning.

At a press conference a year ago, Ayers and a smaller group of evangelicals denounced street preachers who screamed through bullhorns and disrupted wedding pictures being shot near the LDS temple in downtown Salt Lake City.

A DNA revolution
On another front, a different group of evangelicals believes recent DNA evidence questioning the accuracy of Mormon history provides an open door to evangelism.

The Book of Mormon describes how Israelites emigrated to the Americas 2,600 years ago, with the now-extinct Lamanites and Nephites becoming the ancestors of American Indians. But anthropologists say there is no match of Jewish DNA with that of American Indians. An inaccurate Book of Mormon creates questions about the foundations of Mormon teaching.

Hope Christian Fellowship in Brigham City has produced DNA vs. the Book of Mormon, a well-reasoned, articulate, and irenic 50-minute presentation of this argument. The small, independent community church spent $50,000 on the project, and is selling it on videotape and DVD. Pastor Joel Kramer and Scott Johnson produced the presentation. Kramer spent a year interviewing eight scientists—including Mormon scholar Thomas W. Murphy—and two former Mormons who left the church because of the DNA evidence.

The church sent a free video to 7,500 households, consisting mostly of Mormons. The church also sells the video for $3 through its website.

Kramer told CT he has heard reports from about 300 people who have left Mormonism because of evidence presented on the program, released last April. Unknown persons have vandalized one of his vehicles, sent him hostile letters, and left burned tapes at the church's door.

'No Israelite influence'
One former Mormon scientist is 43-year-old Simon Southerton, who served as a bishop in Canberra, Australia. His book, Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (Signature Books) will be published in March.

"The DNA evidence backs up decades of archaeological, linguistic, cultural, and anthropological research that indicates there is no Israelite influence in the Americas before Columbus arrived," Southerton told CT. "The only conclusion I could reach from this research was that The Book of Mormon does not contain a true history."Winning Them Softly
Evangelicals try to reach Mormons with respect—and hard science.
By John W. Kennedy | posted 01/16/2004

After years of ineffective and often acrimonious evangelism by various preachers and groups, a new coalition of evangelical clergy in Utah is attempting to treat Latter-day Saints (LDS) with respect.

Many orthodox Christians have denounced LDS theology throughout the church's history. Not surprisingly, leaders of the 11.7 million-member Salt Lake City–based church have expressed both resentment and distrust.

At the LDS semiannual general conference in October, adherents of the Utah chapter of World Wide Street Preachers Fellowship stomped on underclothes that LDS members consider holy. They also pretended to blow their noses and wipe their bottoms with the garments.

Three dozen evangelical leaders condemned the actions.

"You don't take what is sacred to another faith and denigrate it," said Greg C.V. Johnson, who leads Standing Together, a Salt Lake City ministry to Mormons. "It doesn't take courage to treat a person you disagree with in a disdaining fashion."

Johnson said he has been trying to build trust with LDS leaders for nearly three years. James Ayers, pastor of Valley Assembly of God, and 22 other evangelical leaders gathered at a press conference to denounce the street preachers.

"You don't build any bridges with actions like that," Ayers said. "Our purpose is to let the community know that these people don't represent all Christians in the city. We believe people need to be treated with dignity."

Mormon-evangelical dialogue isn't new, but until now it has been limited in scope. Johnson has engaged in high-level talks with Mormon leaders, and he has received two letters of gratitude from LDS apostles for denouncing the tactics of the street preachers.

Civil discourse
He believes that evangelicals have a greater potential for influence if they refrain from criticism, and that civil discourse is an essential prelude to a breakthrough.

Johnson left the LDS 22 years ago, as a teenager, and now attends an Evangelical Free church. He is in the midst of a 14-city lecture tour with Brigham Young University professor Robert L. Millet. Johnson and Millet engage in a respectful conversation about their points of difference. Sometimes LDS and evangelical groups on college campuses sponsor the events jointly.

The street preachers criticized Standing Together members for failing to tell Mormons they are going to hell. But Ayers said Christians are instructed to love those outside the faith, not rebuke them. Ayers is disturbed that the street preachers seemed to be consumed with anger toward Mormons. Ayers said a number of nominal Mormons have started to attend evangelical churches recently in search of spiritual meaning.

At a press conference a year ago, Ayers and a smaller group of evangelicals denounced street preachers who screamed through bullhorns and disrupted wedding pictures being shot near the LDS temple in downtown Salt Lake City.

A DNA revolution
On another front, a different group of evangelicals believes recent DNA evidence questioning the accuracy of Mormon history provides an open door to evangelism.

The Book of Mormon describes how Israelites emigrated to the Americas 2,600 years ago, with the now-extinct Lamanites and Nephites becoming the ancestors of American Indians. But anthropologists say there is no match of Jewish DNA with that of American Indians. An inaccurate Book of Mormon creates questions about the foundations of Mormon teaching.

Hope Christian Fellowship in Brigham City has produced DNA vs. the Book of Mormon, a well-reasoned, articulate, and irenic 50-minute presentation of this argument. The small, independent community church spent $50,000 on the project, and is selling it on videotape and DVD. Pastor Joel Kramer and Scott Johnson produced the presentation. Kramer spent a year interviewing eight scientists—including Mormon scholar Thomas W. Murphy—and two former Mormons who left the church because of the DNA evidence.

The church sent a free video to 7,500 households, consisting mostly of Mormons. The church also sells the video for $3 through its website.

Kramer told CT he has heard reports from about 300 people who have left Mormonism because of evidence presented on the program, released last April. Unknown persons have vandalized one of his vehicles, sent him hostile letters, and left burned tapes at the church's door.

'No Israelite influence'
One former Mormon scientist is 43-year-old Simon Southerton, who served as a bishop in Canberra, Australia. His book, Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (Signature Books) will be published in March.

"The DNA evidence backs up decades of archaeological, linguistic, cultural, and anthropological research that indicates there is no Israelite influence in the Americas before Columbus arrived," Southerton told CT. "The only conclusion I could reach from this research was that The Book of Mormon does not contain a true history."


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