RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

[ShieldsFamily]



Please define your understanding of "Mosaical Law". Iz

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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:30 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

She IS speaking of the Mosaical Law.  Read her posts, sometime. 

 

JD 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:43:17 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law.  She is speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God.  You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy

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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:09 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

I showed you in scripture ,Judy.  If you want additional stuff along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.
You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).
Terry


Judy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I wrong?  Can you show me in scripture where I

am missing it?  judyt

 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ.  Israel are the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11).  God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God.  If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai.  jt

 

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy.  The Mosaic law was for the "Children of Israel".  No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she voluntarily became a Jew.  Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us whenever we break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will reap as we sow.  It is not necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere.  We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh nature dead.  This is the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically.  The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and does not deal with these issues.  jt

 

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing.  Neither of you has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.
Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 

 

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote: You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you.  Nothing wrong with being a legalist.  God is a legalist too.  Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be no argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of the Law away
Blessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered no more."  Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin  --   He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have the end of law. 

jt: Christ did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinning JD.  The curse is still all over those ppl and they

are wearing it.  Sickness is the curse of the law.

The curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death).  Deut 28:20.   Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28  --  but it is sickness unto death  “…until you are destroyed, until you perish quickly …..” (v 20).    In Christ,  “He has [tasted] death for everyone  (Heb 2), the implication being that death has been destroyed.   More than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered powerless by the cross  ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be delivered from slavery as a result of the “fear of death”  (2:15).  Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words: “Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall n ever see death”  (Jo 8:51). 

  Since Christ took the curse of the Law away - by following your reasoning sickness should be gone also. Interesting tactic, here, Judy.  You bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the discussion !!!   “By following your (me) reasoning  --“

ss so far off base with anything I believe or have said as to be genuinely funny.  I do not believe the curse of the Law is sickness;  it is death or the fear of death.  

 It's not so something is amiss.  The Law has not gone anywhere JD. It is fulfilled in Christ. We must now allow it to be fulfilled in us also if we are to be found "in Him"

Where in scripture do I find this requirement – that I must fulfill the Law as Christ did.   Your doctrine of works is a failure’s doctrine  -  offering no hope and placing one back under bondage.  

The contrast is law verses Spirit.If righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain, David.   Therefore, the faith of Christ is presented in the place of righteousness (or the lack there of).  The very purpose of the Law sealed its fate  --  for through the Law I died to the Law that I might live to God.   More than a contrast between law and Spirit, the biblical text speaks of faith verses Law  ..  the incumbent rewards of abiding in the Law is not a demonstration of faith  -   rather, such rewards are the result of indebtedness.  

jt: God Himself does not pit faith against His Law; this is done by doctrines of men. 

It is God through Paul who makes the contrast:  “Where then is boasting?  It is excluded.  By what kind of law?   Of works (the Old Law) No, but by a law of faith.

I, personally, think it too strong to state that the Law is “pit” against faith.  Nonetheless, faith is in stark contrast to Law.  

 The only reason Old Covenant ppl could not keep God's Law was because of the weakness of the flesh for which we have now been given "dunamis" or power from heaven so that we are now able to fulfill God's Law in or through Christ.

It all goes to purpose, Judy.   The only reason Old Covenant ppl could not keep God’s Law was because righteousness was never the ultimate purpose of the law for “if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on la” (Gal 3:21b)  ….  The Law has become our tutor  .. to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith …. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor  (Gal 3:24-25). 

God could have empowered the ppl at any time to live in accordance with the Law.  Christ did not need to die if that were the issue.  The fact of the matter is this – the law was never for the purpose of justification.  “…if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died in vain”  (Gal 2:21).

That which was presented in Jere 31:31-34 as a promise had its beginnings in the time of Abraham and before the Law.
The law, then, was only a tutor, leading us to the time -------- Original Message --------

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Date:	Mon, 30 May 2005 10:43:22 -0400
From:	Henry R. Moreno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:	Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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when we would be justified through faith, leading us to Christ.   As a tutor, the Law was temporary.  

jt: God's Word is eternal JD; the Levitical system is what was temporary. You have only man’s opinion of this, Judy. 

We are not children of the law (the bondswoman) ; rather and in contrast, we are children of the free woman. 

jt: The allegory above (bondswoman) represents the works of the flesh and has nothing to do with God's Law which is spiritual.  Tell it to someone who has not read these words, “………….Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia  …….”  (Gal. 4:25).   Let me ask you a questions:  Does He, then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles abong you, do it by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?”  This is the same question Paul asked of the Galatians in 3:5.   They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return to the law.    These folk are converted Gentiles.    They are not Jews.  Yet, there are those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law.   They had the power  --   and Paul is saying, do not choose law over Spirit.   Your gospel whould tell these folks, “Use the power of the indweeling that you have received, to fulfill the Law.   Do not reject what God has given !!  Embrace it and live it out in the power of the Holy Ghost.”  None of that is found in the letter  -  yet this is your message.   Snip snip, Judy.  

The really bad news in all this is found in this fact:  to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace. 

jt: The Levitical system is finished and gone ... but trusing in the works of the flesh is the same thing.

Keep the law, if you will DM  --   as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.  The Bishop

jt: If you are trusting in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any better off JD

The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life.  To think otherwise is heretical at best, and heretical in the lest.

JD