Thank you for your answer, Perry. I am wondering if the Mormon folk would make the same argument but with different claims about Jesus. Is the "real" Jesus a procreated being? there may be other qustions -- but that seems to me to a very important question. Blaine, Dave ???????? By the way, gentlemen, there are two questions in the above.
I want to fully agree with Perry -- but if we share in some misconceptions about Christ, and I think we do, what effect does this have on a soverign being full of grace and patience and love? Assume two things on my part -- that I am not moving to ward a theology of universalism and that I see "faith" as "conviction accompanied with content - whether that content is correct (i.e. Peter's confession) or incorrect (i.e. the non-meat eater in Romans 14).
My concern with this line of questioning has as much to do with how I view Judy Taylor as it has to do with Blaine and Dave. Judy denies that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Why should I not consider her to be a heretic? And will your answer put her "within the fold" while excluding Blaine and Dave.
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:22:35 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
John,
None of us DOES have a thouroughly accurate picture of Jesus. But you argument dows not follow from our discussion. I think you can take things away from one's knowledge of Jesus and still have the right one, but start adding stuff, and you get the wrong one. One also can misunderstand an aspect of Jesus, and still be on track.
However, when you start adding extra-biblical stuff you end up with a different jesus. For example, is the Jesus you know the brother of Satan? Did he have a mother and a father in heaven, making him a procreated being? Was his father once a man from the planet Kolob? If so, then you are a mormon! If not, then you know a different Jesus than the mormon Jesus.
One of the primary ways we identify people is by their lineage. Who is their father? Where are they from? Who is their brother? The mormon jesus fails ALL of these traditional tests for iden tifying people. Same jesus? You tell me.
Perry
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:45:28 -0400
>
>What if NONE of us have a thoroughly accurate picture of Jesus (a >possibility with a high degree of probability, I think) would that mean >there is no Jesus at all? !!! I mean, if the True Christ only exists in >our accurate defining of Him -- what then? Can Dave have the wrong >teaching and the right Christ or does Christ only exist for those who think >correctly?
>
>JD
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]& gt;
>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>Sent: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:37 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>
>
>Dave,
>
> I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and the onus is >on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus. I feel we have done >that. Repeatedly. But, you do not accept our evidence, and I suppose short >of having a vision, you never will.
>
> You have not said our Jesus is a false jesus because, since you say you >beleive in the same Jesus we believe in, that would be like shooting >yourself in the foot.
>
>Perry
>
> >From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:30 -0700
> >
> >DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I believe > >in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe in Jesus. > >FTR....I have not said that the Jesus Kevin, you Perry or any other TTer > >believes in is a false Jesus.
> >
> >Lance Muir wrote:
> >
> >>DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage in a > >>conversation that entails reality, then we have to continue to build >upon >>that which has been said previously.According to you THE JESUS TO BE > >>BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED WITHIN MORMON >TEACHING. >>Is this so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin, Perry, Lance et al >is a false >>Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy but, you get my >p oint)What, IYO, are >>the eternal consequenses for non-Mormons? Mr. >Moderator:Please grant >>DaveH the opportunity of fully answering and, >explaining.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Dave Hansen <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> *To:* TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >> <mailto:TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
> >> *Sent:* June 19, 2005 23:02
> >> *Subject:* Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >>
> >> DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in Jesus. Therefore can we conclude
> >> that you've made the judgment rather than God?
> >>
> >> Kevin Deegan wrote:
> >>
> >>> He will!
> >>> *He Has!*
> >>> *JN 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
> >>> believeth not is condemned already*
> >>>
> >>> */Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> >>>
> >>> DAVEH: I fully understand that, Perry. But I'd feel more
> >>> comfortable
> >>> letting God make that judgment than you.
> >>>
> >>> Charles Perry Locke wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > David,
> >>> >
> >>> > Romans 10:9,10 : That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
> >>> the Lord
> >>> > Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
> >>> raised him from
> >>> > the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man
> >& gt;> believeth unto
> >>> > righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto
> >>> salvation.
> >>> >
> >>> > But, as I have stated before, the right jesus and right god
> >>> must be
> >>> > at the center of one's faith. I am not just harassing you,
> >>> Dave, I
> >>> > honestly do believe that the mormons worship false gods.
> >>> >
> >>> > Perry
> >>> >
> >>> >> From: Dave Hansen
> >>> >> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >>> >> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >>> >> Subject: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >>> >> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:16:42 -0700
> >>> >>
> >>> >> DAVEH: Yeah........Pretty quiet on TT tonight..
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do you believe that those who believe in Jesus are saved,
> >>> as I've
> >>> >> heard many Christians proclaim? If belief is inadequate,
> >>> what else
> >>> >> is needed, Perry?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Charles Perry Locke wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Dave, this is great. Midnight, just me and you on TT,
> >>> mano y mano,
> >>> >>> so to speak :-)
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I guess I am biased in that way, because both you and
> >>> Blaine admit
> >>> >>> to following the christ and jesus of mormonism, so it is
> >>> my opinion
> >>> >>> that you are lost since I believe that they are false
> >>> gods. If I
> >>> >>> thought that you guys were saved in spite of the
> >>> teachings of the
> >>> >>> mormon church I would not be spending so much time
> >>> exposing the
> >>> >>> false nature of the mormon church to you.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> But, the bottom line is that God makes that ultimate
> >>> decision, not I.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Perry
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >
> >--
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >Dave Hansen
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >http://www.langlitz.com
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >If you wish to receive
> >things I find interesting,
> >I maintain six email lists...
> >JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
> >STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
> >
>
>----------
>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org
>
>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
None of us DOES have a thouroughly accurate picture of Jesus. But you argument dows not follow from our discussion. I think you can take things away from one's knowledge of Jesus and still have the right one, but start adding stuff, and you get the wrong one. One also can misunderstand an aspect of Jesus, and still be on track.
However, when you start adding extra-biblical stuff you end up with a different jesus. For example, is the Jesus you know the brother of Satan? Did he have a mother and a father in heaven, making him a procreated being? Was his father once a man from the planet Kolob? If so, then you are a mormon! If not, then you know a different Jesus than the mormon Jesus.
One of the primary ways we identify people is by their lineage. Who is their father? Where are they from? Who is their brother? The mormon jesus fails ALL of these traditional tests for iden tifying people. Same jesus? You tell me.
Perry
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:45:28 -0400
>
>What if NONE of us have a thoroughly accurate picture of Jesus (a >possibility with a high degree of probability, I think) would that mean >there is no Jesus at all? !!! I mean, if the True Christ only exists in >our accurate defining of Him -- what then? Can Dave have the wrong >teaching and the right Christ or does Christ only exist for those who think >correctly?
>
>JD
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]& gt;
>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>Sent: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:37 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>
>
>Dave,
>
> I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and the onus is >on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus. I feel we have done >that. Repeatedly. But, you do not accept our evidence, and I suppose short >of having a vision, you never will.
>
> You have not said our Jesus is a false jesus because, since you say you >beleive in the same Jesus we believe in, that would be like shooting >yourself in the foot.
>
>Perry
>
> >From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:30 -0700
> >
> >DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I believe > >in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe in Jesus. > >FTR....I have not said that the Jesus Kevin, you Perry or any other TTer > >believes in is a false Jesus.
> >
> >Lance Muir wrote:
> >
> >>DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage in a > >>conversation that entails reality, then we have to continue to build >upon >>that which has been said previously.According to you THE JESUS TO BE > >>BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED WITHIN MORMON >TEACHING. >>Is this so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin, Perry, Lance et al >is a false >>Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy but, you get my >p oint)What, IYO, are >>the eternal consequenses for non-Mormons? Mr. >Moderator:Please grant >>DaveH the opportunity of fully answering and, >explaining.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Dave Hansen <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> *To:* TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >> <mailto:TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
> >> *Sent:* June 19, 2005 23:02
> >> *Subject:* Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >>
> >> DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in Jesus. Therefore can we conclude
> >> that you've made the judgment rather than God?
> >>
> >> Kevin Deegan wrote:
> >>
> >>> He will!
> >>> *He Has!*
> >>> *JN 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
> >>> believeth not is condemned already*
> >>>
> >>> */Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> >>>
> >>> DAVEH: I fully understand that, Perry. But I'd feel more
> >>> comfortable
> >>> letting God make that judgment than you.
> >>>
> >>> Charles Perry Locke wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > David,
> >>> >
> >>> > Romans 10:9,10 : That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
> >>> the Lord
> >>> > Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
> >>> raised him from
> >>> > the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man
> >& gt;> believeth unto
> >>> > righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto
> >>> salvation.
> >>> >
> >>> > But, as I have stated before, the right jesus and right god
> >>> must be
> >>> > at the center of one's faith. I am not just harassing you,
> >>> Dave, I
> >>> > honestly do believe that the mormons worship false gods.
> >>> >
> >>> > Perry
> >>> >
> >>> >> From: Dave Hansen
> >>> >> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >>> >> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >>> >> Subject: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >>> >> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:16:42 -0700
> >>> >>
> >>> >> DAVEH: Yeah........Pretty quiet on TT tonight..
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do you believe that those who believe in Jesus are saved,
> >>> as I've
> >>> >> heard many Christians proclaim? If belief is inadequate,
> >>> what else
> >>> >> is needed, Perry?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Charles Perry Locke wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Dave, this is great. Midnight, just me and you on TT,
> >>> mano y mano,
> >>> >>> so to speak :-)
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I guess I am biased in that way, because both you and
> >>> Blaine admit
> >>> >>> to following the christ and jesus of mormonism, so it is
> >>> my opinion
> >>> >>> that you are lost since I believe that they are false
> >>> gods. If I
> >>> >>> thought that you guys were saved in spite of the
> >>> teachings of the
> >>> >>> mormon church I would not be spending so much time
> >>> exposing the
> >>> >>> false nature of the mormon church to you.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> But, the bottom line is that God makes that ultimate
> >>> decision, not I.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Perry
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >
> >--
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >Dave Hansen
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >http://www.langlitz.com
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >If you wish to receive
> >things I find interesting,
> >I maintain six email lists...
> >JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
> >STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
> >
>
>----------
>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org
>
>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
