DAVEH: Well Lance, I think I responded to some of this in a parallel
post tonight. Basically, while we may disagree with the attributes of
Jesus, we are all on the same page when we say we believe in
Jesus.....he is the one who the Bible tells us hung on the cross in our
behalf. He is my Savior, just as he is your Savior.....and, Kevin's
Savior. That is the Jesus we are talking about.
Now as to the points below....Kevin tossed out a lot of stuff that
may or may not have pertinence. (It is a style he often times uses to
counter a meaningful discussion.) As I read down through his list, it
even confuses me as to what he is getting at in some instances. Sure,
I could discuss each one in length, offering Biblical support (that
some will criticize as being proof-texting), but what's the point?
What you see below is an effort to distract TTers from the real
discussion. If Kevin can make my beliefs sound goofy to you, Terry or
anybody else in TT....he has succeeded in his goals.
What is overlooked is that Kevin is not trying to define Jesus as
he believes him, but rather define what he wants you to think that I
believe (and is in error on some of it). In essense, he is trying to
deal me out of the game by defining the game to favor his position at
the table. So....let's assume for the sake of argument that I've dealt
out of this game for a minute. What game does that leave you to play
with him?
Now....I don't want to presume to know what Kevin believes about
the Trinity Doctrine (because I don't recall him stating his position
on it), but for the sake of argument let's say he believes it lock
stock and barrell. Is that (representation) the Jesus you believe in,
Lance? Many TTers do accept the T-Doctrine, but as you might know, I
view the TD somewhat in the words Terry used to describe my
beliefs....goofy. No....I cannot accept Jesus as described by the
TD. Do you? I wonder about Kevin....do you accept the TD, Kevin???
Now......Am I critical of you, Kevin or any other TTer who might
believe the TD? No....if that is your belief, I respect your right to
believe such even though I find it goofy and cannot accept that
perspective of Jesus.
My position remains the same.....I believe in Jesus. The same
Jesus who came to earth to be my Savior and Redeamer. For any TTer to
claim as Kevin has that I do not believe in Jesus is an outright lie in
my opinion. Nobody can prevent me from believing in Jesus....not even
Kevin, as much as he would like you to think otherwise.
Lance Muir wrote:
Gentlemen: (Blaine, DaveH and
lurkers) How could one ask for more 'proof' than this? Will you
actually respond? No bullhorn here! He (Kevin) apparently did 'do the
math'.
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
June 21, 2005 07:14
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
I don't recall seeing much of that on
TT.
You don't remember seeing:
He was creator of Satan NOT his brother
He always existed not procreated
He was the only true God who became a man (God manifest in the
flesh), NOT the man who became a god
He was the ONE True God, NOT one of millions of gods
Begotten of the Holy Ghost, not of a union of a god & his
goddess Mutha
Jesus is to be WORSHIPPED & prayed to
His atoning death on the CROSS cleanses from ALL sins, NOT
just to open the door and NOT in the garden.
The CROSS is to be preached, NOT to be disdained
Jesus was Born in Bethlehem NOT Jerusalem
ONE in Trinity, NOT three gods, NOT one in "purpose"
Immortal, NOT a Mortal fallen man
I think you missed hundreds of posts check your
folders they are filling up your HD!
The Mormon Jesus
LITERAL son of a god and his goddess wife; NOT
the Holy Spirit - MD p547,742; JoDv1 p51
The brother of all spirits born in heaven - MD 192,589,281; Gospel
Principles p9
Was a married POLYGAMIST - JoD v1 p346, v2 p210
One of 3 gods in the godhead - MD p576
The Trinity is three separate gods - TPJS p370
Had a beginning - MD p250 HoC v6 p305
A MORTAL,
FALLEN, MAN who progressed, became god - MD p129,321,751 DC
93:12-14,21
Atoned for sin
on the cross AND the garden of Gethsemene - Gospel
Principles p58 1978ed
Was born in Jerusalem - Tribe of Benjamin - BoM: Alma
7:9,10 Josh 18:21-28
Is the Brother of Lucifer - Gospel Principles p15,
Moses 5:17;JoD v6 p207
Jesus' sacrifice not able to cleanse from all sins - JoD v3,p 247,
2Nep2:26,25:23, MD p92
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph
Smith as a prophet of God - D of S: v 1. 188
LDS Jesus a created being. Yet the BoM Title Page says "Jesus
is the Christ the Eternal God"
"The
traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak."
Gordon B.Hinckley – LDS Prophet, Revelator &
Seer
The Real Biblical Jesus
Not literal son
of a god & his goddess wife. Born of the Holy Spirit - LK
1:34; MT 1:20; Is 7:14
Not the brother
of all spirits born in heaven - Col 1:16
Was Not married and did not have wives - Rev 21:9; Ep 5:23
Not "one of 3 gods" in the GODHEAD - Rm 3:30; 1 Co 8:4; Gal
3:20; 1Tim 2:5
The TRINITY is 3 persons in one God - Col 1:15,2:9; Heb
1:3; Gen 1;26
ETERNAL : NO Beginning or End - JN 1:1; IS 9:6; JN
8:58; Hb 13:8
ETERNAL,
IMMORTAL, SINLESS God -> became flesh - PH 2:6;
JN1:1,14; 2Co5:21; 1Tim 3:16
ATONED
for all sin on the cross alone - Col 2:14; HB 9:12,28; 10:12,14
Was born in Bethlehem : Tribe of Judah - Micah 5:2; MT 2:5;
Rev 5:5
Jesus is Not the brother of Lucifer - Col 1:16; EZ 28:15
His atoning death on the CROSS was able to CLEANSE ALL SINS
- 1 JN 1:7; RM 10:4
Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE
- JN 11:25; 14:6; Ep 4:21
The Bible’s
Jesus is PRAYED TO - Acts 7:55-60; Zech 13:9 with 1 Cor.
1:1-2
The Bible’s
Jesus is WORSHIPPED - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; JN
9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
The Bible’s
Jesus is called GOD - JN 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8; Titus 2:13;
2Pt 1:1; Is 7:14
The Bible's
Jesus is the Creator of ALL things, NOT a created Being! Col 1:16
Eph 3:9
Jesus
"there is none
other NAME under heaven given among men,
whereby we MUST be
SAVED."
Acts 4:12
Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
DAVEH:
You've got that a bit backwards, Perry. The onus is on you to
prove (explain might be a better word) your Jesus.....I don't recall
seeing much of that on TT.....other than he created the world, was born
of a virgin, died and was resurrected.....all of which I believe. Is
there more you (TTers) want to say about your belief about Jesus?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and the
onus
> is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus. I feel we
have
> done that. Repeatedly. But, you do not accept our evidence, and I
> suppose short of having a vision, you never will.
>
> You have not said our Jesus is a false jesus because, since you
say
> you beleive in the same Jesus we believe in, that would be like
> shooting yourself in the foot.
>
> Perry
>
>> From: Dave Hansen
>> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:30 -0700
>>
>> DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus
I
>> believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I
don't
>> believe in Jesus. FTR....I have not said that the Jesus Kevin,
you
>> Perry or any other TTer believes in is a false Jesus.
>>
>> Lance Muir wrote:
>>
>>> DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going
to engage
>>> in a conversation that entails reality, then we have to
continue to
>>> build upon that which has been said previously.According
to you THE
>>> JESUS TO BE BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY
DESCRIBED
>>> WITHIN MORMON TEACHING. Is this so? The Jesus believed in
by Kevin,
>>> Perry, Lance et al is a false Jesus. Is this not also so?
(unwieldy
>>> but, you get my point)What, IYO, are the eternal
consequenses for
>>> non-Mormons? Mr. Moderator:Please grant DaveH the
opportunity of
>>> fully answering and, explaining.
>>>
>>> DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in Jesus. Therefore can we
conclude
>>> that you've made the judgment rather than God?
>>>
>>>
>>
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://www.langlitz.com
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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If you wish to receive
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