DAVEH: If I call you something that is not true and do not apologize
for it, then I would think you would be within your right as moderator
to rebuke me for doing so. But as I see it, I am not doing or saying
anything that represents an ad-hom attack. I am merely pointing out
that you meet criteria for the definition that LDS folks have assigned
the term, anti-Mormon. Should that draw the moderator's ire?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, call me anything you want, okay. Whatever floats your boat.
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Perry an Anti-Mormon?
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:18:54 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
No, but I am quickly becoming a Davophobe!
I do not have to accept labels that do not describe me accurately.
Besides, just because mormons coin a word that is a misnomer does
not give it any authority in the language.
DAVEH: Your logic is a bit flawed there, Perry. If LDS folks
coined a word that is useful for their needs, then why would you be
bothered about what it means to them?
Just like 'gentile'. You would consider me a gentile, but not
yourself. Hogwash. You are as much a gentile as any non-jew. Mormons
have redefined that word. Coincidentally, no one in the world
accepts that definition for gentile except the misinformed.
DAVEH: Yes, that is a word we've changed to meet our own needs.
When we use it, we are not trying to confuse or mislead non-LDS
folks. It is just a definition that works well for us.
They have redefined MANY words to fit their own intent.
DAVEH: I agree. We do use many words to describe things that are
somewhat foreign to non-LDS folks. Like I said, they meet our needs
just as does anti-Mormon. The difference is that we did not redefine
anti-Mormon. We simply coined the term to describe folks like you,
and as long as it meets that need....we will continue to use it as
such. To redefine it is not necessary for us. The root word works
just fine.
That does not give ANY of those meanings any authority in the language.
DAVEH: Anti-Mormon does have meaning in our language. That's why we
use it.
Call me what you want, Dave. But calling me anti-mormon now that you
know that I am not against mormons
DAVEH: How can you say that after referring to me as a *sly ol'
mormon boy*, Perry??? You are just lucky the moderator has a beam in
his eye! ;-)
wil be considered an ad-hom attack from you.
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with you, Perry. Why would it be an
ad-hom attack? It simply describes you as you are. However, I am
curious as to how other TTers see it. Do any TTers consider Perry to
be an anti-Mormon as it has been defined by Mormons?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] Is Perry an Anti-Mormon?
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:43:44 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Here is the Google definition you sent.
"Anti-Mormonism is an overt opposition to Mormonism, often
specifically to Mormonism's largest and most prominent sect, The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("LDS Church"; see
also Mormon). *Anti-Mormon activities range from reasoned
arguments (often references to Archeology or the Bible) to
scathing expos s and public protests" *
Read the first sentence. This is what I have been saying all
along. "Anti-Mormonism is an overt opposition to Mormonism".
DAVEH: I've never disputed that, Perry.
"Anti-mormon" is a misnomer when applied to me. Now, if I was
against, or hated, or wished ill upon MORMONS, then I would
consider myself anti-mormon, but I am not, and I do not have to
accept that label if it does not appliy to me.
DAVEH: Apparently you did not read the second half of the
definition, Perry.......
*Anti-Mormon activities range from reasoned arguments (often
references to Archeology or the Bible) to scathing expos s and
public protests" *
.......Seems to me that you meet that definition, Perry. Do you
disagree?
Example: Do you agree with the homosexual lifestyle? That it is
wholesome and acceptable? If not, you may be a HOMOPHOBE! Do you
fear homosexuality? Probably not, even though you may not agree
with the lifestyle. A Phobia ia an irrational fear of something,
in this case homosexuals. You see, it is a misnomer.
DAVEH: Anti-Mormon as defined by LDS folks is not a misnomer when
applied to you. It accurately describes what you are in our eyes,
and by our definition. You simply meet the definition of
anti-Mormon as LDS folks have coined it. Would you like me to
provide you more definitions to support the ones I've already posted?
It's purpose is to cast those that disagree with that lifestyle
into a castigated group. I do not agree with the homosexual
lifestyle, but I am not a homophobe any more than I am an
anti-mormon. I am anti-mormonism, not anti-mormon.
Do you understand the difference? Do you use the word
"homophobe" to label those who do not agree with the homosexual
lifestyle? Are you a homophobe? Don't accept labels that
mis-represent your beliefs, David.
You can continue to call me anti-mormon if you wish, but you are
labeling me incorrectly when you do so.
DAVEH: That is simply nonsense, Perry. I've given you the
definition. Why do you persist in trying to change the
definition? Are you a mormo-phobe? :-)
If you do so, I will know it is intentionally to antagonize me
with a lebel that does not apply.
DAVEH: Your refusal to acknowledge an accurate definition is very
interesting. FTR....I am not trying to intentionally antagonize
you, and the label does apply. If anything, I'm trying to keep you
from self deceiving yourself.
But, if you want to say I am anti-mormonism, then you will be
accurate. What is it to you to put 3 letters at the end to make it
"ism"?
DAVEH: LDS folks have been using the anti-Mormon terms for a very
long time (well before you were born). Interestingly, I don't
remember much (if anything) ever being said in the past by LDS
folks using the term anti-Mormonism. I don't think it is normally
used by LDS folks, as far as I can recall. So...to be accurate,
again from an LDS standpoint, you meet our definition of anti-Mormon.
Is is the difference between trying to antagonize the sutuation v.
being accurate. You choose.
DAVEH: I'm sorry if you feel the truth antagonizes you, Perry. I
am also sorry you feel I am trying to antagonize you by staying
true to the definition of anti-Mormon. I think I've tried to
maintain an amicable and respectable relationship with you....a
guy who has previously described me as a *sly ol' mormon boy*, have
you not? If anything was said in an effort to inflame, I would
think that qualifies. Yet I am not complaining, Perry. I
recognize that is the way you perceive me, and if that is what you
truly believe....that is your prerogative. But if you think I use
the term to describe you is inflammatory, you are wrong. It is a
term that accurately describes you.
Even if we were to use your definition of anti-Mormon.....would
not your use of *sly ol' mormon boy *pretty well convince anybody
following this discussion that you accurately qualify as an an
anti-Mormon as *you*'ve defined it? If so, why are you so critical
of me recognizing you as you portray yourself?
And yes, you did tell me that mormons coined the term
"anti-mormon" for those that are against mormonism. That is no
different than the homosexuals coining the term "homophobe" to
describe those that disagree with their lifestyle. It's purpose is
not to be accurate...it is to inflame (so to speak).
DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion,
Perry.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:32:34 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
And who defined "anti-mormon" to mean "anti-mormonsim"? You said
the mormons did.
DAVEH: I did??? Are you sure about that, Perry? I don't recall
saying such, but it is pretty synonymous, IMO. Have you ever
googled *DEFINE ANTI-MORMON*?
<http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3AAnti-Mormon&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&biw=>
That is no different than any other word they have redefined for
their own purposes.
DAVEH: From the google definition, it appears you are the one
trying to redefine it, Perry. Why does it bother you that as an
anti-Mormonism, you also meet the definition of anti-Mormon???
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:43:35 -0700
*
This is the problem with the dual meanings that mormons assign
to words...they don't mean what they used to mean. So, we can
talk all day with them about soiritual matters and we think
that they are in agreement with us, when really the words mean
something different to them. Like the Queen of Hearts said,
"When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean!" *
DAVEH: I have chatted with DavidM enough to know what he
believes (or should I say doesn't believe) about the pre-mortal
existence of our spirits, just as he explained to you in a
parallel post today Perry. But I do find it amusing that you
continue to criticize Mormons for having dual meanings when you
do the same thing with the term *anti-Mormon.*
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
> DAVEH wrote:
> May I presume you believe free agency existed in the
pre-mortal existence?
DavidM responded: Yes.
Perry cautioned:
David, be careful here. When a mormon says "pre-mortal
existence" I believe they mean a little more than you may
know. To the mormon I believe that to say "pre-mortal
existence" refers to the existence of jesus, satan, you, me,
and all other humans in a pre-mortal spiritual state as
spiritual siblings, whereas, I believe that you may think of
the premortal state as being prior to the time Adam was created.
Essentially, you just agreed with the *sly ol' mormon boy
*that prior to your being born into a body (pre-mortal state),
you believe you had free agency, along with satan, jesus, and
all of your myriad spiritual siblings. Is that what you believe?
*
This is the problem with the dual meanings that mormons assign
to words...they don't mean what they used to mean. So, we can
talk all day with them about soiritual matters and we think
that they are in agreement with us, when really the words mean
something different to them. Like the Queen of Hearts said,
"When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean!" *
Perry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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