RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

[ShieldsFamily]

Izzy in bold blue:   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:49 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death     ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death   Izzy in red:   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:16 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death   Bill, the reason they aren’t serving God with their mind, body, soul is because they are spiritually separated from Him (dead—not physically but spiritually!). Izzy   Do you mean that their spirits are literally dead? Yes, to the things of God. If so, then how can they, of their own free will, choose to serve God? By His grace alone.   Then you are taking the Augustinian/Calvinist/traditional stance on this doctrine. The only ones who have the capability of believing are those whom God quickens to life; if he does not quicken you, you are left in your sins and completely dead, dead, dead to the things of God. Hence you have no ability nor desire to even want to make a free-will choice to serve God. Is this your position? If it is not then I would suggest that you are not treating the spirit as if it were literally dead, as in spiritually dead.  No, actually I’m not familiar with their stances.  But I have stated before that I believe God extends His grace to every person, but most refuse it.  (The parable of the wedding feast illustrates this.)     Wouldn't the spiritual aspect of their beings have to be regenerated before that choice could be made? In other words, how could a dead spirit choose to become a live spirit, one which could respond to God in service to him?  How can an “alive” spirit be regenerated and made alive, Bill? I am not treating the language literally, Izzy. You are. Now you tell me the answers to your questions. Yes, I always attempt to receive the words of scripture literally first, and then as parable or metaphor or something else only if that is obviously not possible.  How is one regenerated if one was not dead in the first place?   I know you want to help your friend, and she certainly needs all the help you can give her, but please don't digress. That only adds further confusion to the discussion. You think I’m digressing? You are my friend, also, Bill.  I’m trying to help both of you. iz Thank you, Izzy. I consider you a friend as well; however I also think you are digressing, if indeed you are now treating the spiritual aspect of personhood as being literally dead. Not even Judy is willing to go that far: "This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the last day." Moreover, when I pointed this out to you (her comments), along with comments that you had made, you agreed, stating "Yes.  I see spiritually dead pretty much as you describe here IF you are assuming the person is “dead” (not alive) to things of the Holy Spirit (and hell-bound), which I think you do."  To which I was able to agree, precisely because we were speaking of people who had been called to follow Jesus, but were rejecting him instead.  Again, trying to grasp your meaning is like nailing jello to the wall.  Whenever I think we agree on a point it turns out things are just half a bubble off.  Please tell me, though, if you can the answer to my question: How is one regenerated if one was not dead in the first place? Thanks for your patience.  izzy   Bill     ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:01 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death   Bill, the reason they aren’t serving God with their mind, body, soul is because they are spiritually separated from Him (dead—not physically but spiritually!). Izzy   I told Izzy that I thought there was a spiritual element included in Jesus' statement: "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." But I also told her that I thought it was not just directed at the spirit aspect of personhood: "those who reject Christ are doing so with their entire being -- mind, body, soul, and spirit."  Bill