Re: [TruthTalk] The Fall

[knpraise]

 

We can take it off line, if you prefer.  I have no problem ignoring the Attackers who roam TT, however. 

 

I do read your posts as well as Perry's  --   but, lately, you two seem to be in a rut over the speculative issue of the human reality if there had been no sin.  

 

From my point of view,  this could not have happened because it did not happen.   I believe that creation included the creation of more humans than just A & E.   Their story is singled out because of their relation to the story of Christ and the reconciliation of mankind.  Adam and Eve were created for the same perfection we all receive in Christ.  

 

The Cross was a part of the creation equation from before the foundations of the world.   That single event is the context of the Garden Story for me.   Any and all speculation must be considered in the light of the Cross IMO.   Perhaps that is why Perry sees no point in the conjecture in question. 

 

Sin is a transgression of the Law.   But it much more than this.  It is also a systemic aspect of our very nature.  Selfishness is an example of this circumstance.   It is against the will of God but not the Law of Moses, for example.  Adam and Eve is the story of the first TRANSGRESSION.  Their selfishness and pride  manifested themselves in the temptation to sin.   Their disobedience manifested itself in their eating of the fruit.   The story told in Old Testament scripture is, in part, the story of man's relation to the stated Law of God.   

 

Christ on the cross dealt with the consequence of the violation of Law.   But His death also ushered into existence the reconciliation of all things (Col 1:20-24) and the rule of the Spirit.  Adam and Eve were given but one single commandment  -   the fore-runner to the grander Law of Moses.  They were given one thing to do and they couldn't even do that !!!!  

 

Man has a tendency to look to Law as the order of life.   Such is clearly demonstrated by some here on TT.   The fact of the matter, IMO, is something very different.  Kingdom rule is that which deals with the systemic nature of sin.   The Sermon on the Mount was an important aspect of the ministry of Christ, because, in those words,  the Master uncovers the "real" problem with the Law.   "Law" is proven to be of no help (Romans 2 and 3) in dealing with that which is clearly systemic (or "organic" as described by some on this forum). 

 

 

JD

 

 

 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Hansen <dave@langlitz.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:17:06 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Fall

DAVEH:   Haven't you been reading Perry's posts about it?.........

Perry wrote:
What is the purpose of this conjecture? Adam and Eve fell, so it is *a pure waste of time* to conjecture otherwise.

........It seems that whenever (with some occasional exceptions....DavidM) I've tried to discuss the Fall of A&E with Protestants, they don't want to consider what happened prior to the Fall that precipitated the Fall.  Does that make sense, JD?  From my LDS perspective, there is a lot of extra-Biblical revelation that explains some of the oddities about the Fall of A&E.  Protestants don't have that advantage, so their only response seems to be as Perry's above....a pure waste of time to consider what God wants to happen.

    For instance... .If God does not want sin to enter the world, why did he allow Satan to influence Eve?  Does Protestantism offer an answer to that question?

    BTW........I suspect having a discussion such as this may cause some TTers to have a conniption, which will undoubtedly bring on a slew of ugly posts.  If you wish, we can take this off TT to keep it simple without all the distractions. 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 

 

"limited view of the fall."   How so.   Poisoning?   Some think they are the protectors of the truth.   Most of us know that such effort is fully unnecessary.   We are all big boys and girls, in spite of our we often act.  You and Blaine included.....sorry. :-)        Anyway, give it a try.   "How so?" 

 

JD

 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:39:13 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Fall

DAVEH:   This topic fascinates me, as I'm very curious as to why the Protestants have such a limited (from my perspective) view of the Fall.  But for me to offer my thoughts on this event would be seen as poisoning the well by some TTers.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 

Anyone care to have a real discussion  ???  I am still working on the "fall" of man.   Man is created out of the dust of the earth and returns to same when he dies.  He was created as a mortal  -  thus the tree of life is found in the garden.   I assume they ate of that tree up until the time they sinned or there was no point to the tree being there except for the story teller to reveal that A&E were driven from the garden because of the tree and what it offered. 

 

The accounting of their temptation-to-sin reflects the very same process as exists in our lives.  

 

There is no indication within the text that their nature or essence changed. 

 

So why should I conclude that the fall included more than the record of the first sin event. 

 

Virtually everyone I know and respect thinks there is more to the fall than the sin event.   Why? 

 

I get a little nervous when I realize that I am the only one who thinks a particular thing.   Help.

 

 

 

JD