Re: [TruthTalk] an argument from the gay community for homosecuality - corrections in cluded

[knpraise]

 Sorry  -  I hit the wrong button before finishing this masterpiece. 

 

Jd

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Knpraise
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:48:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] an argument from the gay community for homosecuality

 

Be sure and avoid dealing with the following: 

 

Why does Paul restate the claim that "there is none who are righteous, no not one/"

 

Why does he insist that we all continually fall short of the glory of God?  

 

Why is faith a substitute for righteous  -  or did you miss that point? 

 

When you quote passages like I Cor 6:9 as if that is the full statement on the doctrine of Heavenly Exclusion,  you trample the biblical message and make pertinent and amending passages of no account.  You make God an idiot.  

 

Romans 1:18ff, for example, is not talking about men who are ungodly and unrighteous  ----   heck, as noted above, we are all in that boat.   Paul is talking about those who are ungodly and unrighteous AND suppress the truth AND do not honor God AND do not  give thanks to Him AND practiced futile speculations AND worship something other than God   -------------   because of all of this God gave them over to their lusts.  

 

When you argue that unrighteousness, in and of itself, is that which puts us out of favor with God, you truly condemn yourself, your grandchildren, and all of mankind for we are all unrighteous and SO MUCH SO THAT GOD HAS TO CONSIDER SOMETHING OTHER THAN RIGHTEOUSNESS  IN ORDER TO COMPLETE THE ACTION OF JUSTIFICATION  ---------  He exchanges faith for righteousness BECAUSE HE HAS TO. 

 

JD

 

 

 

 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:14:35 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] an argument from the gay community for homosecuality

You say this to your shame, Lance, not comprehending the Word of God, or even what it means to be a true Believer.  (Anyone qualifies in your opinion.) izzy

 

I Cor 6: ⁹Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals.."

 

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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 4:16 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] an argument from the gay community for homosecuality

 

It (Christian homosexual) is no more of an oxymoron than 'Christian sinner',. In spite of the poor exegesis and poor theology to the contrary, this is so.

----- Original Message -----

From: ShieldsFamily

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: September 27, 2005 17:12

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] an argument from the gay community for homosecuality

 

To you this is "well stated"??? To me it is too typical faggot tripe. And, FYI, there is no such thing as a "Christian homosexual".   izzy

 

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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:20 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] an argument from the gay community for homosecuality

 

 

In case you were curious,  here is a rather well stated argument for homosexuality. 

Enjoy. 

 

JD    

 

 

  
The Bible has often been used as a weapon to condemn homosexuality as sinful or
immoral. It is often overlooked and even outrightly denied that some of the
heroes in the Bible were themselves homosexual. The story of Jonathan and David
is one of the more obvious cases.



For the sake of simplicity, I'll let the Bible itself unfold most of the story.



After David's heroic victory over the Philistine giant, Goliath, in 1 Samual,
Chapter 17, David meets Jonathan for the first time.



1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the
soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his
own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his
father's house. 3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him
as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him,
and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, a nd to his bow, and
to his girdle. 1 Samuel 18: 1-4



Their souls are knit together, they love each other so much that they made a
covenant with each other, and Jonathan, son of the King, strips before David,
who is much lower in rank and status.



In the next passages, David's popularity and military achievements are advanced,
and King Saul starts getting jealous of all the attention being paid to David.
In order to trap him, Saul makes David his son-in-law by giving him his
daughter, Michal, to wed.



Some people may stop right here and say that if David married Michal, it's proof
that he didn't have a homosexual relationship with Jonathan. There are several
flaws to this argument. First, their marriage was probably only political. Saul
offers his daughter's hand in marriage only as part of a greater plot to get at
David. And while it was said that Michal loved David, the Bible never says that
he loved her back. Also, we know from other ancient cultures such as the Greeks
and even the Philistines, that heterosexual marriages weren't necessarily
exclusive. It's very possible that David could have been bisexual.



In 1 Samuel 19, Saul tries to kill David, and David eventually flees in 1 Samuel
20.



1 And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What
have I done? what is mine iniquity? and what is my sin before thy father, that
he seeketh my life? 2 And he said unt o him, God forbid; thou shalt not die:
behold, my father will do nothing either great or small, but that he will shew
it me: and why should my father hide this thing from me? it is not so. 3 And
David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found
grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be
grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a
step between me and death. 4 Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul
desireth, I will even do it for thee. 1 Samuel 20: 3-4



David and Jonathan continue talking about what to do about Jonathan's father.
Then they part ways so Jonathan can go somewhere safe. Again they make a
covenant with each other, and swear their love for each other. Jonathan loved
David "as he loved his own soul".



16 So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, Let the LORD
even require it at the hand of David's enemies. 17 And Jonathan caused David to
swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul. 1
Samuel 20: 16-17



In the next passag es, they plan to meet again so that Jonathan can let David
know whether he should come back safe from Saul, or whether he should go away.
And Jonathan talks to his father. Saul tells Jonathan that he is confused in his
love for David. He also says that as long as David is around, Jonathan won't
establish his lineage or kingdom. This certainly has all the elements of a
com ing out story.



30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou
son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the
son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's
nakedness? 31 For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt
not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me,
for he shall surely die. 1 Sam uel 20: 30-31



Jonathan warns David that his father is still angry, and that he's not safe.
They reaffirm their covenant to each other, kiss each other, cry over the
situation, and I'm not even going to try to interpret what it might mean when
the passage says "David exceeded".



41 And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south,
and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they
kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. 42 And
Jonath an said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in
the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my
seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into
the city. 1 Samuel 20: 41-42

In 2 Samuel 1, David hears about the death of Saul and Jonathan in battle. He
mourns their deaths, and remembers his times together with Jonathan stating that
Jonathan's love for him was stronger than Jonathan's love for women.



25 How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast
slain in thine high places. 26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan:
very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the
love of women. 2 Samuel 1:26



Well that's their story as told in the Holy Bible. There are other Bible heroes
that are rumoured to have been gay or lesbian. Among them are Ruth and Naomi,
Daniel and an eunuch, and the Apostle Paul (though if he wa s, he had his own
issues with sexuality).