Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
I went back through the entire sequence of our exchanges (from the
archives) on the smoking thing and I realize that while the smoking
statement was offensive to me, the real insult came with your flippant
response and veiled apology loaded with further insults. While I did
not expect an apology from you for using the gest, I also did not
expect further abasement and belittling. That is what set me off.
DAVEH: What set me off is you playing stupid. I've got a pretty good
idea you are anything but stupid, Perry. Yet you sure sounded that way
in the way you acted offended by my smoking comment.
I accept your apology below, which I feel this time is genuine.
I also have recalled the whole incident after I called you "sly" a
few months back, for which I apologized, and since it is in my memory
(which is generally very good), and I do not have the hard copy
messages to demonstrate the situation, will not relate it on the forum.
But, lets just say, I was not lying to you about the sitution.
DAVEH: Which is a good way for you to imply that I am lying. :-)
Good job of emulating my tactics, Perry. Isn't that much better
than outright making an outright dumb accusation....that I am a liar!
If I had done that to you, I suspect you would have been hyper
indignant that I would say something like that. Am I bothered by
it....naw. I'd much rather see you say something like that than make a
head on frontal attack that is patently false. It keeps the tempers
under control, IMO.
I would expect you to see it differently than I did, of
course.
DAVEH: That's right....I do see it differently because I pretty well
know how I think and operate....so to speak. It just isn't like me to
hammer a guy who has apologized. And...you certainly have me at the
disadvantage in searching for an instance where I did not hammer
you after your apology. So...until you produce firm evidence that I
did, then it would appear as you are the one being less than truthful.
(Now...see how politely/nicely I put that, Perry. I didn't outright
call you a liar, but I sure left some room for others to consider that
you might be.) :-)
Perhaps other TTers can either add support to your perspective, or
mine. Does anybody remember (and can provide evidence) of me
hammering Perry a year or so ago after he made the sly apology???
Now, IF nobody has a memory of such happening, Perry.....wouldn't it be
likely that your memory is faulty? Or....do you think your memory is
better than the memories of all other TTers? I'm sticking my head on
the chopping block here, as there are a few TTers who might be so
biased that they view anything I say as an attack. But....I would
expect them to produce the evidence as well, to back up their memory.
Since some are so adept at digging up anti-Mormon material, digging up
one more quote from a Mormon boy should be no problem, eh.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] Perry & Dave: Civil Discussion
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:32:32 -0700
DAVEH: I want to thank you for the change in tone, Perry. I will
endeavor to reciprocate. Hopefully we can have a civil discussion
without the need to go into an attack mode.....
*your "apology" is really full of further insults, negating any veiled
attempt at an apology. *
DAVEH: That is exactly correct, Perry. That was my intent, and I'm
glad you understood the implication. I'll admit to reaching a point
of being fed up with the garbage that has been cast my way, and that
was my way of retaliating. Tain't very Christlike, is it. For that I
apologize.
*More than once I have seen you rely on that to conveniently "forget"
things. *
DAVEH: Yes, I do forget things. But....I also know my nature. And,
my nature is not to badger somebody over something for which there has
been an apology. Like you said....I didn't complain before you
apologize. I sincerely don't think I complained afterward....I just
don't do such.
My suggestion is that IF you can't back up an accusation, be very
careful in making it. There is no way for me to prove or even remember
something that was never said. So...IF I said it....IMO, you should be
prepared to either prove it with a quote that is not taken out of
context, or retract the accusation. That's the standard I try to live
by, and I would hope you would apply it to your life as well. The
loose accusations that are adrift in TT are simply not acceptable
standards for Christian adults, IMO.
*even when you know someone is offended by a bad joke you made, you
cannot offer a sincere apology. You feign an apology and use it to mask
further insults. I call that "sly".*
DAVEH: That's because I found your response to be highly
unbelievable. A guy as toughened to religious discussions as I
perceive you to be should have a bit thicker skin, IMO. For such a
trite and common analogy (/what are you smoking/) to affect somebody
like you or Dean (a street preacher who one would think would be used
to much worse) is really laughable---forgive the terminology on that
one.....but it is the way I felt when I heard you complain of being
offended. Even now, I find it incredible that you would think that I
really should have thought you were offended. And...I still don't
think so. I guess it is similar to when you refused to believe I came
to TT to learn about what Protestants believe and why. It doesn't
matter how many times I explained my reasons for being here, you simply
refused to accept what I was saying. Guess I did the same to you,
Perry. Don't consider that an apology though, as I don't think you
believe my reasons for being here any more than I can accept your
easily offended nature. Perhaps we are both wrong.
*Yes, I have leaned hard on your faith.*
DAVEH: So then why would you be surprised at my sarcastic apology?
You want to play hardball with somebody who enjoys getting beat-up all
the time? I know you loathe Mormonism, and I've got no problem with
you believing as you do, as long as you respect my right to do the
same. And....you should know by now that I'm not going to be changing
my thinking simply because somebody wants to bloody my nose over my
beliefs. From my perspective, the more the anti-Mormon folks post in
an effort to denigrate my beliefs only serves to strengthen them when
garbage is posted. If you aren't following me, let me give you an
example. Some TTers want people to think LDS theology teaches that God
had sex with Mary. Not only do I not believe such, I have a reasonably
fair understanding of what LDS theology teaches. So when I hear
something like that repeated over and over even after I have explained
what we do believe, it simply points out why those making such claims
are not to be trusted to tell the truth. So....why would I believe
anything else they say?
*Until you open up to the Hioly Spirit, denounce this satanically
inspired cult, and accept the God and Jesus of the Bible, there is no
hope for you.*
DAVEH: As you recently accused me of doing........
*You just don't stop, do you? *
............Perhaps we should consider that it could just be the pot
calling the kettle black.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
In my response below I intentionally used hyperbole to point out the
fact that, while you appear to apologize on the surface, *your
"apology" is really full of further insults, negating any veiled
attempt at an apology. *
I guess there is no accounting for your bad and biased memory. You
know the archives are almost impossible to navigate for anything more
than a few weeks old, and I do not keep old messages. *More than once I
have seen you rely on that to conveniently "forget" things. *
I fully understood, and understand, the nuance of asking what someone
is smoking, but I still was offended by that. The interesting thing
here, and what this experiement in hyperbole has pointed out, is that
*even when you know someone is offended by a bad joke you made, you
cannot offer a sincere apology. You feign an apology and use it to mask
further insults. I call that "sly".*
*Yes, I have leaned hard on your faith.* As I pointed out before, I
will rebut Satan, regardless of from which camp he enters this forum. I
see the footprint of Satan all over what JS has wrought. *Until you
open up to the Hioly Spirit, denounce this satanically inspired cult,
and accept the God and Jesus of the Bible, there is no hope for you.*
-------------------------
By the way, care to tell the forum why you guys raise your arms "to the
square" and chant "Pay Lay Ale" three times? Do you know what that
means?
From
http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/templeofthegodmakers.htm:
"If you are still not sure if they pray to the false god or the true
God, did you know that the chant has been changed? Until just before
1930, they chanted "Pale hale hale" or "Pale ale ale." What a
coincidence! The direct Hebrew translation of "Pele Heylel" is
"Marvelous Lucifer"!(4)
There is something strange going on in Joe's house, David.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Restoration versus condemnation-David Miller
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:23:37 -0700
*Dave, you just don't quit, do you.*
DAVEH: That's right Perry.......It's one of my weaknesses. I don't
quit as long as others keep pushing.
*Now you are implying that I am not a clear thinking American. Nice
jab*
DAVEH: It does seem that way, eh! Look at what you said to John
about my smoking sarcasm.....
/ Sure, yes, of course I knew Dave was using it as a gest, John. But
not all tongue-in-cheek humor is appreciated. While you may get a
chuckle out of it, I do not particularly like being equated to a drug
user, even as a gest.
How about if I asked you, in gest of course, "Hey, John, do you still
beat your wife?". Now, that is a joke, right? Or is it? I don't know,
but I do know that you MAY not like it, and you MAY be offended by it.
Right?
It also depends on who is doing the joking. If it a close friend that
I can trust, and we have a rapport for joking in that vein, then I know
exactly what they mean. But, if it is someone that has been sly and
hostile in the past to me, why should I not consider the comment as
hostile, or a veiled jab?/
.........Now Perry......how many TTers do you think view *your *above
comment as a *clear thinking*??? May I suggest..../none/! You are
certainly an American, but I wouldn't think there would be very many
Americans who do not understand the /what have you been smoking
/nuance. And I bet there isn't a single TTer who did not understand
it, even those who might be half-witted. And IMO, those who are
offended by it aren't *clear thinking* either. BTW...Thank you for
the compliment.....I believe you deserved it.
*No we are incapable of understanding a gest? I know it is was a gest,
I just found it to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.*
DAVEH: You say that as if I haven't found any of *your *comments
about my beliefs *to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.* Why is
it different when the
shoe is on the other foot?
*
It is not that I am so sensitive, it is that you have not earned to
right to joke that way with me. *
DAVEH: Ohhhhhhhh.....that is priceless, Perry!!! :-D
*That is like me saying, "I did not call you a wife beater, I just
asked, 'Do you still beat your wife?' (in gest, of course). Nice try,
Dave. *
DAVEH: FWIW.....I haven't beat her since I started beating the dog.
*Nice try, *Perry. ;-)
*Now we are half-witted...or less than half witted? We can't even
understand as much as a half-witted kid? You are a true apologizer,
Dave! *
DAVEH: You've certainly proved my point, Perry.
*I don't think Dean was joking when he called you a pagan, and I happen
to agree with him, that those who follow the mormon faith are pagans,
not knowing the God and Jesus of the Bible, folowing occultic rituals
and worshipping a flase god. How do you define 'pagan'?*
DAVEH: Of course he wasn't joking. I did not read it as a joke, and
he didn't indicate it to be a joke. I'm sure he was just as serious as
you are now being serious. From
<http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/pagan........
++++++++++++++++++
Definitions: Pagan
Pagan
Adjective
1. Not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam.
Noun
1. A person who does not acknowledge your God.
Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All
rights reserved.
++++++++++++++++++
.........I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, Perry.
*And, when I called you "sly" a few months back you did not
complain...until someone else said they thought it was an ad-hom. Boy,
you sure jumped on the bandwagon at that point...I apologized, and you,
taking advantage of the situation, flogged me for days over that one,
while at the same time refusing to apologize for an injustice you had
committed. *
DAVEH: You've lost me on this one, Perry. I responded to your
above claim in a parallel post tonight, and will await your proof of
guilt before offering an apology. I really do not remember giving you
a bad time about the sly comment. IF I did, I'll sincerely
apologize. After the time that you had apologized to me, I thought I
said nothing more about it.
As for the injustice I committed.....All I can remember you taking
offense at is calling you what you are....an anti-Mormon. You fit the
accepted definition, so why apologize? It wasn't meant to demean, but
merely to distinguish you from others who are not LDS, and not
anti-Mormon.
*Notice that you word it so that it is not your problem you offended
me, it is my problem...my "sensitivities" *
DAVEH: Welllllll, Perry.........Betwixt the two of us, you do seem to
be the one who is ultra sensitive. So....yeah, it is your problem.
Especially since you are a member of TT who has had little reservation
against dumping on Mormon TTers.
*After reading the above "apology", why do I get the feeling that you
are not apologiing, but turning this into an opportunity to further
demean Dean and I?*
DAVEH: What Dean recently said of me.......
*/you big cry baby/*
.........might more appropriately be applied to you, Perry.
_*You just don't stop, do you? *_
DAVEH: That's right Perry....you just might want to remember that in
the future.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
*Dave, you just don't quit, do you.* In
your statements below you appear to apologize, while continuing to
abase my character...get this...
DAVEH: I'm sorry you feel that way,
Perry. I thought it to be pretty well understood my most clear
thinking Americans that asking that (smoking) question is a joking way
to point out the ludicrousness of what they said.
*Now you are implying that I am not a clear thinking American. Nice
jab*.
It was not at all intended to imply
that either you or Dean were dopers.....just that your claims are
pretty wild, as if you can't discern reality. My apologies if I
failed to convey that message so that you (and Dean) could understand
it.
*No we are incapable of understanding a gest? I know it is was a gest,
I just found it to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.*
BTW.........I pretty much know
that both you and Dean are stone cold sober, but I fail to understand
why you are so sensitive.
*
It is not that I am so sensitive, it is that you have not earned to
right to joke that way with me. *
I did not call either of you a
doper....I just asked what you were smoking.
*That is like me saying, "I did not call you a wife beater, I just
asked, 'Do you still beat your wife?' (in gest, of course). Nice try,
Dave. *
The proper answer had you wanted to
give it would have been, "nothing".....to clear the smoke from the air.
Now it is my problem for not giving the right answer...and "clear the
smoke from the air"...another bad joke, Dave. _*You just don't stop, do
you? *_
Instead, both of you apparently have
taken offense, assuming the opposite of what any half-witted kid would
fully understand.
*Now we are half-witted...or less than half witted? We can't even
understand as much as a half-witted kid? You are a true apologizer,
Dave! *
Yet, Dean called me a pagan and you
did not utter a peep as far as I know. As you know, I've got a pretty
thick skin, and have come to expect such from some TTers, so I don't
feel the need to cry foul at the ad hom. I just find it interesting
that you guys can dish it out, but seem to get all confused and choke
on that which is returned.....even when it is a joke.
*I don't think Dean was joking when he called you a pagan, and I happen
to agree with him, that those who follow the mormon faith are pagans,
not knowing the God and Jesus of the Bible, folowing occultic rituals
and worshipping a flase god. How do you define 'pagan'?*
Now, when he equated you to flatulence, I was offended, but I let John
handle it since he has been mothering the group lately, and I think he
did a fine job. So, I did not intervene.
*And, when I called you "sly" a few months back you did not
complain...until someone else said they thought it was an ad-hom. Boy,
you sure jumped on the bandwagon at that point...I apologized, and you,
taking advantage of the situation, flogged me for days over that one,
while at the same time refusing to apologize for an injustice you had
committed. *
FTR......Again I apologize for
damaging your sensitivities, Perry.
*Notice that you word it so that it is not your problem you offended
me, it is my problem...my "sensitivities" *
*After reading the above "apology", why do I get the feeling that you
are not apologiing, but turning this into an opportunity to further
demean Dean and I?*
Perry
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