My second question? If you have no rationalization, just say so instead of
dodging it.
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 00:14:02 -0800
*if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face" described in Exodus on Mt.
Sainai, upon which God said no man could look and live), then the statement
about him enduring it is unnecessary,*
DAVEH: Just as unnecessary as it would have been for the Bible to suggest
that merely hearing the voice of God would bring death.......
*[33] Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of
the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?* Dt 4
.........The people back then had the same mistaken understanding that you
seem to have, Perry. They misunderstood their relationship to God,
assuming that God could not be seen, otherwise the person seeing (or even
hearing his voice) God would die. They could not fathom that it was
possible for man to have a direct and personal relationship with God. The
folks were even afraid to get close to Moses after he conversed with the
Lord........
*[30] And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the
skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.* Ex 34
........It is very apparent that Moses' exchange with God was something
totally unexpected by the folks back then, due to their errant belief that
one could not see God without suffering death.
_*As far as "similitude", it does not mean an exact replica, or the thing
itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is present. If god
shows himself as a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning bush.
*_
DAVEH: Huh?!?!?! Where did you get that, Perry? Where in the Bible
does similitude suggest that? Quite the opposite.....As you will see
below, God's */similitude/* was *not *a burning bush (note vss 12 & 15).
Here are three verses from Deut that use the term similitude.......
*
[12] And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the
voice of the words, but saw no /similitude/; only ye heard a voice.
[15] Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of
**/similitude /**on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of
the midst of the fire:
[16] Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the
**/similitude /**of any figure, the likeness of male or female,*
...........Notice how verse 12 mentions hearing a voice, but seeing no
*/similitude/*. Interestingly, verse 15 reinforces verse 12 in countering
your above comment about Moses seeing God in the burning bush by /again
/mentioning that God's voice was heard, but the */similitude/* of God was
not seen at that time. IOW....Moses did see the burning bush, but he did
not see the */similitude/* of God at that time. Reading on to verse 16,
*/similitude/* was used to warn against creating figures in a human
likeness that could be used as objects of worship. Now Perry, if this does
not give you a good idea of what */similitude /*means when the Bible says
Moses saw the */similitude/* of the Lord, how do you define it? Do you
still think the burning bush represented the */similitude/* of God?
*Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why would he have to write
another book, repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah? *
You've lost me on that one, Perry. Care to explain what you are
thinking on that one? IF you perceive a contradiction, then perhaps your
understanding of what was said was lacking. Or alternatively, perhaps the
account is from two different perspectives, or perhaps it is not complete.
Until I know what you are specifically referring to, I don't quite know how
to answer.
*We are not destined to agree, and that is okay with me.*
I think you've missed the point, Perry. You aren't just disagreeing
with me on this.....you are disagreeing with the Bible.
*on to my second question* For what purpose? As I pointed out in
detail, LDS Scripture agreed with the Bible in the instance of Moses seeing
God. That neither LDS Scripture nor the Bible agree with what you *think
*happened between Moses and God pretty well defines your position, Perry.
If you don't want to agree with the Bible that Moses saw God, there really
isn't much more to discuss. As you said..../*Fini.*/
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Simply put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP, *if Moses did not see god's "face" (as
"face" described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could
look and live), then the statement about him enduring it is unnecessary,*
because we know that men can gaze upon whatever form god chooses to
present himself, and endure, except whatever he called his "face" on
Sainai. The implication in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have endured
viewing God, but did, thus, that he was seeing god's "face". If moses did
not see god's face in Moses 1:2, then enduring that feat was no big deal
for moses...hardly worth being called out. On the other hand, if he was
seeing god's face in Moses 1:2 and endured it, then Moses 1:2 is
contradicting scripture.
Furthermore, if god were a man, why would he not appear as a man every
time he presents himself? Why a different form every time, but never
directly as a man? The use of body parts to describe his image on Sinai is
not unreasonable since these are certainly the terms Moses was familiar
with, and the ones he obviously chose to describe the experience.
_*
As far as "similitude", it does not mean an exact replica, or the thing
itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is present. If
god shows himself as a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning
bush. *_
*Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why would he have to write
another book, repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah? *
I am done with this topic. I have stated my position. /*Fini.*/ *We are
not destined to agree, and that is okay with me.* Get you last shot in,
then...
*on to my second question*...how the mormon god, who is "without beginning
of days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite beginning.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800
*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.*
DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see his body, but not his
face. That is why he said to Moses......
*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_:
but my face shall not be seen*. Ex 33
.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's back parts? If not, then it is
clearly obvious that Moses saw God. (And if you do deny it, then it
would seem you are contradicting the Bible.) That does not mean he
didn't *also *see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column of smoke.
Sure...he saw those things too. But most important to this
discussion....Moses *literally *saw God. If you wish to ignore that
simple fact Perry, that is your privilege. I see it as denying the word
of God to do so though. Furthermore, I can't believe there would be any
Bible believing Christian TTer who would agree with you. Am I wrong?
_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_
That's pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as
saying.......
/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw God face to face_, and he talked with him, and the
glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*/
..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother you, and yet you
apparently have no problem with the Bible when it says in Num 14.......
*[14] And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they
have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that _thou LORD art seen
face to face_, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest
before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire
by night.*
..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses /_saw God face to face_/,
and the Bible tells us that the Lord has been *_seen face to
face_*....then *who *do you suppose saw the Lord IF it was not Moses?
FWIW....I do not believe that the phrase /_saw God face to face_/ or the
phrase *_seen face to face_* literally means in either case that God's
face was seen. I have had experiences where I've stood face to face with
people, and have not actually looked at their faces, but rather have
handed them something (such as money) or received something from them
(such as a coupon) without glancing upward to see their actual face.
But....I did see their bodies, or parts thereof.
/*none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of
God's appearance anyway.
*/Again........that is nonsense, Perry. I previously quoted Num
12.......
*[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in
dark speeches; and _the similitude of the LORD shall he behold_:
wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? *
Why do you think the the term *_similitude_* was used, Perry? How
else do you suppose they would say that Moses actually *saw *God, instead
of just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column of smoke? The term
*_similitude_* was expressly used to prevent naysayers from saying that
Moses did /not really/ see God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that
contrary to the Bible, those naysayers even today continue to claim Moses
did not see God.
_/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY man,
could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof that
the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
I never claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think
that is a contradiction boggles the mind.
*_/I don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it
does./_*
The contradiction is in your mind, Perry. And, your assumption that
God cannot be seen is in error, and non Biblical. You have been shown
just a few Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There
are others as well, but there is little reason to discuss them since you
have rejected the obvious ones.)
I have been accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs,
Perry....but you certainly have overshadowed me this time. It is overtly
obvious that you have no desire to understand the truth of this matter as
found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible
explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as such it must
be from Satan........do you disagree?
*How about my second question, Dave. *
What's the point of going on to the second question, Perry? When I
show you specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous
theories, and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I
would try to explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive
than talking to a brick.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave wrote:
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible?
*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.* Was it
a burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fire? A column of Smoke? You
see, God appeared however he wished to appear to Moses. It appears to
have been different each time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was
that god wanted him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God
certainly took a form that moses could "see". However, on Sinai there
was an aspect of this appearance upon which no man could look and live.
God called this his "face". He protected moses from gazing upon this
aspect of his appearance, so it reasonable to believe that in future
meetings Moses did not see god's "face" or he would have died as the
boble states.
_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_ And, /*none of the
verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's
appearance anyway. */
Maybe the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since you
think the mormon god is a man, he must have a literal "face") and
survive, but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses,
nor ANY man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet
more proof that the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
Thanks for the effort you put into this, Dave, but *_/I don't "still
think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it does./_* I am sorry
that your mormon faith causes you not to be able to see this.
------------------------
*How about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not
have to look it up: *
It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from Kolob)
who was a created being (if not as a man, at least created as a spirit).
Yet, in the PoGP (one of your standard works consisting of revelation to
JS, right?) I find the following, which appears to say that the mormon
god had no beginning ("without beginning of days"):
MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God
Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or
end of years; and is not this endless?
Now, how is it that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without
beginning of days"?
Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this to me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's look what happened to
him in Ex 33...
*[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh
unto his friend. *
...............At the end of the same chapter, the Lord tells
Moses........
*[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man
see me, and live.
[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt
stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will
put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while
I pass by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back
parts_: but my face shall not be seen.*
...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*, and as evidence that
actually happened, ch 34 explains........
*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took
the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the
children of Israel that which he was commanded.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of
_Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until
he went in to speak with him.
*...............That something miraculous had happened that caused
*_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses saw........
*[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in
the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both
came forth.
[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I
the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak
unto him in a dream.
_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in
dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:_
wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?*
.........Notice that he distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser
faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the *_similitude of
the LORD_*.
So Perry, would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses
saw God? That Moses did not see God's face is of little consequence.
Moses probably never saw the bottom of God's feet either.
But....according to the Bible he certainly saw God.
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you
still think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2.........
/_*And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory
of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*_/
..........contradicts the Bible? I certainly don't see any
contradiction, especially since the Bible quotes the Lord as speaking
*face to face* to Moses. Are you clear on that, Perry........or do you
continue to believe it is impossible to see God?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man
can see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on
this, too.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't view them as contradictions,
Perry. Instead, we view *your* understanding to be in error.
Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to
understand that concept, then you will never understand why LDS folks
don't see it as a contradiction.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP!
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there
shall no man see me, and live.
/_/*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and
the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*/_/
Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts
the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my opinion, of course! And
that is that if the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's face and
lived, we must have a different god, for no one can see the face of
the God of the Bible and live!
I have read only the first few verses of the book of Moses in the
Pearl of Greast Price (one of the mormon standard works consisting
of revelation to JS from god, right?), and already have found two
glaring contradictions!!! Why should I read further?
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
Perry
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