Judy wrote:
There is no such animal as a "believing sinner" - Sin is sin, and righteousness is righteous. Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness. The just shall live by faith.
Amen, Judy! While I know we have never addressed this issue on TT before, I suspect this is the crux of the disagreement.
Also, JD, since when did exhortation to right-living become judging? And how can Jesus save those who do not know that they are living in sin? (i.e., "I came to save the sinners, not the righteous")
Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
There is no such animal as a "believing sinner" - Sin is sin, and righteousness is righteous. Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness. The just shall live by faith.
Amen, Judy! While I know we have never addressed this issue on TT before, I suspect this is the crux of the disagreement.
Also, JD, since when did exhortation to right-living become judging? And how can Jesus save those who do not know that they are living in sin? (i.e., "I came to save the sinners, not the righteous")
Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:42:23 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Actually, Ro 1: 18-25 is a statement of circumstances failed and , as such, find the sinner given over to his own creation.Romans 1 speaks of what happens to people who hold the truth in unrighteousness. That is, they know the truth but do not choose to walk in it. God eventually gives them over to a depraved mind. What are you talking about "failed circumstances?" We are responsible for our choices every day same as them.Homosexuality is only one of 26 sins listed -- a list that was NOT intended to be a complete list, no doubt. Verses 18-25 applies to back-talking parents just as much as it applies to homosexuality. Paul has not singled out one sin (gayness) to the exclusion of the others in the list.Maybe not but sexual perversion and uncleanness in this area is huge, it is taking over our country and should be taken more seriously than put on a par with "talking back to parents" Look at the sins of the Amorites for which they were driven out and destroyed as a nation:1. Homosexuality2. Incest3. Inordinate affection4. Adultery5. Idolatry6. Profanity7. Bestiality8. Witchcraft9. Whoredom10. Dishonor to parents11. Murder12. Stealing13. LyingBecause of the truth of such passages as Heb.10:14, we realize that we are not to be defined by our sins. Instead, we are to consider ourselves dead to sin (Ro 6:11) and in this consideration, allow the old man to fade while the new man becomes the motivating influence ( Eph 4:20-24 -- yes Virginian, the old man is still there).Who is Virginian JD? Are you speaking in a veiled way to me? I don't define myself by sin; I see myself as righteousin Christ - thank you.We are all affected by sin (Ro 2:1) and should not forget this fact when we are filled with he desire to judge others as if we are different. The point of the book of Romans is two-fold (at least through chapter 8) -- we are sinners and still dealing with sin issues AND God in Christ saves us anyway.The above must be the gospel according to JD because my Bible tells me that we should judge only with righteous judgment and not stick our heads in the sand.In the Romans 1:18-25 passage, the difference between "us" and "them" is seen in the "failed circumstances" mentioned, to wit: we are given over to our individual lusts (all temptation appeals to a lust of some kind - James 1:14-15) -- preferring the sin to the savior; we come to a point when we serve ourselves to the exclusion of God; we have cease to honor God as God; we have left off giving thanks to God (acknowledging His as our provider); turning to speculations [as opposed to being led by the Spirit]. We our sins take us to the point of these failures, we are lost. The scary truth of the matter is this: all sin has this ability.Yeah, well the same choice was given to Cain when God told him that sin lay at the door but he must choose.He made the wrong choice and was left with the consequences. How quaint that you now refer to this as"failed circumstances" exonerating ppl of their own responsibility.If we "have all sinned and continue to fall short of His glory (Ro 3:23) , this passage (1:18-25) becomes critical -- presenting to us boundaries , so to speak, that separate the believing sinner from the unbelieving sinner. JdThere is no such animal as a "believing sinner" - Sin is sin, and righteousness is righteous. Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness. The just shall live by faith.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:30:48 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Emailing: NIV.htm
Thanks David. As I suspected, no illustrations.
L
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Sent: November 22, 2005 18:00
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Emailing: NIV.htm
> Lance wrote:
>> Other than when speaking with the religious
>> leaders, will you illustrate Jesus doing something
>> comparable?
>
> Why are you exempting religious leaders? Are you not aware of the > religious
> people of our day? The homosexuals are a religious people. Their culture
> is based upon sexual hedonism. Have you not read Romans 1, where it says
> that they "worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator"? See
> Roman 1:25.
>
> Romans 1:25-32
> (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served > the
> creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
> (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their
> women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
> (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, > burned
> in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is
> unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which
> was meet.
> (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God
> gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not
> convenient;
> (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,
> covetousness, maliciousn ess; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit,
> malignity; whisperers,
> (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of
> evil things, disobedient to parents,
> (31) Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection,
> implacable, unmerciful:
> (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things > are
> worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do
> them.
>
> By the way, the administrators to whom I have carried my message from God
> are Christian leaders!
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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judyt
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