I don't think they were misled by the passage. I think they perceived that you do not perceive the completed aspect of sanctification, and you were trying to use your Greek exegesis skills to make this passage prove your point.
This is correct; the scriptures are spiritually discerned rather than Gk exegetically manipulated.
You have to understand, John, that many on this list do not have the educational background to talk on your level about these matters. We really should not run roughshod over them. We need to do the translating for them.
Wait a minute David, this really troubles me. Why pump JD up about his great learning when this is his problem?
You've mentioned in the past that you think I am against education. Not so when it comes to a dentist or doctor who is going to work on me. I want them to have done their homework. However this is IMO totally misplaced in the body of Christ and from my experience it has caused no end of problems. All education can do is give one a historical background, it can never impart spiritual understanding - Deans questionaire on Calvin is a good example of how that works since we are still reaping what he sowed into the body of Christ and it's fruit is not good.
I found some of the conversation interesting, because Judy often has repeated her viewpoint that we are all in the process of being sanctified.
My belief David is that there is a triune aspect to both salvation and sanctification ie: we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved, same for sanctification; and I saw the verse in question (Heb 10:14) as referring to Heb 10:10 and the once for all aspect. So all we did on that thread is what 2 Tim 2:14 warns us not to do which is to "strive about words to no profit"
I notice it because from my perspective, she often fails to apprehend the completeness of sanctification that already has taken place for some believers (those who embrace Christian perfection and sanctification).
Am I missing something David, are there some who are "locked in" to Christian perfection and sanctification and not others? This is reminiscent of Calvin's select of the elect. 1 Thess 5:23 speaks of our whole "spirit, soul, and body" being preserved blameless and for one believe everyone's mind needs renewing from the start.
Yet in this matter, she fought tooth and nail against the concept. You shook your head in disbelief, but I think there is valid reason why she took that position. I know I just lost you... sorry. I'm tired and must sign off now. God bless.
JD's claim that Kevin and I prove his point is ironic since he and Bill proved the point made earlier about the danger of the newer translations where men feel free to correct God's Word in light of the "supposedly" newer Greek (read Westcott and Hort) manuscripts.
No it does not ???? Perhaps this is true in your case. I am not sure you understand the problem, but I think you do. Others, clearly, do not and that is my point. The average reader will see this as a completed action. Kevin and Judy have made such arguments and prove my point. IN THAT REGARD, this is a poor translation of the text. A much better translation would be as Bill suggested, IMO.
Jd
-----Original Message-----
From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:54:48 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/
revisor
JD wrote:
> The translation presents the reader with a
> completed task when that is not the case.
No it does not. The translation is present passive. You keep trying to portray falsely that it is past tense. Nothing in this translation indicates whether our sanctification is completed or is still ongoing. It only indicates that we are sanctified at the present time.
Peace.
David Miller.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
-----Original Message-----
From: David Miller <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:06:28 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
JD wrote:
> I think Bill's point (correct me if I am wrong,
> Bill) is that the KJ translation gives us a past
> tense translation of a present tense participle.
> There is no good reason for doing such and
> in that context, it is a "mistake."
I did not understand Bill this way, but if that is what he is saying, he
would be wrong. The phrase "are sanctified" is not past tense. The syntax
of "sanctified" looks like a past tense construction, but it is simply a
participle construction of the verb "sanctify" that looks the same as the
past tense form of the verb. The tense of the verb is present tense, as
indicated by the word "are." If it were past tense, the phrase would be
"were sanctified" not "are sanctified." The translation presents the reader with a completed task when that is not the case.
JD wrote:
> In the English, this past tense translation circumvents
> ENTIRELY the impact of sanctification as ongoing
> event by another in our lives.
It would only be your own personal reading of "are sanctified" that would
circumvent ENTIRELY the impact of sanctification as an ongoing event. The
phrase is present tense, and hence it does not circumvent anything of the
sort. Your confusion in the first paragraph would seem to prove my point.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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