BTW whan you and DM resolve the issue let us know.
Are you getting closer?
Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dean writes > Yet us ignorant people gave the meaning of the present and future tense of the word sanctified as Christ taught in the bible the first time out.No, Dean, you did not. And if you do now, it is only because you have been through the process of the last four days. The truth is, the first time out you interpreted my words as an invitation to debate your Wesleyan theology, obviously having previously missed the present passive aspect of this participle. As for some of your homies: Judy's first response was to accuse me of introducing an idea into the text which "is not there," and of having "made a straw man to knock down"; and Kevin's was to accuse me of making "the text wrong"; he then went on a two day snipe hunt, looking for a passive "being" in the Greek text. And he would still be out there, were it not for David calling him in. Is this how you guys get it the first time out?I presented my concern about the KJ translation as this, that it was prone to leading English readers into confusion: 'A cursory reading of this verse may leave one with the impression that the "perfected" are those whose sanctification is complete: they are, after all, "sanctified," aren't they?' To which David's response was "How can you be so dogmatic about them being mistaken? What convinces you that they are wrong to translate as are sanctified?" The problem with this translation is that it is ambiguous and hence easily misunderstood. Notice what Kevin says in return: "The action is past tense. So what is the problem?" The problem is the action is present tense and progressive -- it is the participial adjective that is in a past tense form. Moreover, the problem is that Kevin unwittingly demonstrates my very concern, even if you and he and everyone else is unwilling to admit it.But that is only the beginning. Kevin boasts that, "God gave the Word he gave us the Holy Spirit and as Dean points out some were able to GET IT, right out of the gate! When are the rest going to get IN the race?" Let's look at how "the Word" and "the Holy Spirit" have helped Kevin "GET IT." While criticizing me for adding "being" to my translation, he writes,Perhaps these? Should we insert "Being" sanctified? if not these there must be some other evidence for the ONGOING EVENT of sanctification.And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our'sFor both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of oneHB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for allJUDE 1:1 to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus ChristSeems they are all present tense must be a KJV thingy. (emphasis my own)Yeah, you better believe it is a KJV thingy. The problem is, only one of these "are sanctified" phrases in Kevin's list of six is actually in the present tense; the rest are perfect tense and speak to a completed past with lingering effects. Would you mind venturing a guess as to which one it is?David claims that this type of KJV shorthand is not a problem; he can tell by context when a perfect tense is being implied. Perhaps he can. What big deal is that? He's studied the Greek. My question to you is, why can't you tell the difference? Why isn't Kevin able to tell which one of these is in the present tense, and why can't he tell that the other five are perfects? He's got God's Word and Holy Spirit to guide him. Izzy doesn't know how right she is: "If only the scribes and Pharisees can understand God's Word, and we must depend upon their interpretations, we are in big trouble. Fortunately this is not the case." She's right: there are plenty of people who can help you, if you will but let them.Your recommendation "is to have a simple child-like trust in the KJ-This type of trust invokes God and you will understand far more then what you glean from the Greek." Well tell me then, with an understanding like that, which of Kevin's present tenses is actually a present tense? Did you agree with him that this "is exactly the road we travel on when we enter into the greek game. Endless arguments about the sense of 'being' versus the nuaances of 'having been'"? If you did, then get in the race: I challenge any of you to tell me the answer without first going to the Greek. Tell me, Kevin, are you willing to "make your stand, without any scripture to back up your Philosophy"? If not, then punch in the Greek and notice the tense results.Judy claimed that I and my "Gk Dictionary cohorts are putting [ourselves] into a very definite doctrinal corner here." I asked her why this was so, but she declined to answer. The truth is, the only thing I am discussing, and the only criticism I have made against the KJV, is that it is too loose in its translation of verbal concepts; it is vague and prone to being misunderstood. Your inability to distinguish between a present and past tense, between a progressive passive and a participial adjective, between a perfect tense and a present tense (in numerous other instances), proves my point. David asks what convinces me that the KJ translators were wrong to translate it as are sanctified. Well, quite frankly, you do. The truth is you and your homies don't get it and you're not going to get it as long as you are hell-bent on sending to hell anything that has to do with the Greek text. "Forget the Greek, and dont waste your time arguing about it," is the wrong answer. Come on over to my corner: we will be glad to help you; we want to help you.BillBy the way, Kevin, if you still want another example of "the ONGOING EVENT of sanctification," you may be interested in looking into the present participles of Hebrews 2.11 -- one of them is a passive progressive.
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