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To test them DaveH. Faith is ALWAYS
tested.
He did not plan for them to fall.
DAVEH: If that is
so, then why do you think he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in
the Garden of Eden, Terry?
Rather than go to all the
trouble of preparing a remedy for the fall, would it have not been immensely
easier to simply not have put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the
garden? IOW....there must have been a reason for God to put the tree
there. Seems like it would be important to understand for what the
purpose the Lord placed that tree there. Why do you think,
Terry?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This
seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been taught
otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to accept.
God is
omnicient, He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them
to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big
difference.
As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows?
All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to
error.
=================================================================
Dave
Hansen wrote:
He
wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?
if they had not they would have saved themselves and the
rest of
humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and
misery that has been the human lot since
then.
DAVEH: Thank you two for your
comments, both of which focus in one facet of the A&E situation of
which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories
was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said A&E
screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained
that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without
experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious
later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and
now you folks have sparked that fire again.
I
must be missing something about your (forgive me....but let me say,
Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not transgressed,
do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed? In
my experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him
from doing it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much
sooner than later---one of A&E's children would have fallen? Or
do you believe that of the billions who descended from A&E, none would
ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that
happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most
Christians blame A&E for the misery in the world, when it was
inevitable. From my perspective....not only was it expected, but it
was planned. And.......evidently you believe that as well,
since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before the
world was created.....that it was planned? (Please let me know if
you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God
wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective
perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I said....perhaps
I'm missing something about the way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to
transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the
rest of
humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and
misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the
Lord
want that for them/us?
Terry
Clifton wrote:
God hates
sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no matter how
many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I am given
that option. God will give you the option, but it is not His
desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God,
wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices
that bring pain and death.
Look around you. Child molesters,
burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation, disease.Do you think that
maybe He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for
everyone?
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your perspective,
Terry.........I assume you believe that God did not want A&E to
sin though, even though he knew they would. Is that
correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just
the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.
Fact two: God
hates sin.
Fact three: Getting people to sin is the top
priority of Satan.
It's over. We know who to blame.
Nothing to discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
No. Actually, I have never heard
this question discussed
DAVEH: That
rather surprises me. I remember asking Perry a similar
question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather
surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians
(including Protestants, RCC and independents) believe that God
wanted A&E not to transgress. IFF that was actually his
intention, then it seems an interesting thought avenue to
pursue. Yet, the few who've responded seem to indicate
that they have no interest in pondering what the Lord intended to
be. To me, that seems very strange. Does it
strike you as rather curious, John?
were A & E
predestined to sin?
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask
that question. I do not know what you folks believe about
predestination and foreordination. Since you apparently do
not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me
that you would not believe in either. But....I don't want to
assume such without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No. Actually, I have never heard this
question discussed. You asked me to
comment on a question -- perhaps a week ago,
now. Aaaahhhhhh, was it "were A & E
predestined to sin?
jd
DAVEH:
May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am
curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would have
happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed. Does that
discussion ever come up with you folks? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Look -- what are we going to
discuss here on TT? We have pretty much said
all that can be said about any number of
subjects.
jd
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
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