-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:25:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:42:37 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Actually, you didn't answer the question. The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a regenerated individual. How do we know this? This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God ( Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law.How do you know he had never heard the preaching of the cross of Christ? He just didn't have the Law the way that the Jews did.The point of Romans 2 is the contrast between the have's and the have not's. The Gentiles are those who outside God's revelation and the Jews are those who are in.He is speaking to the Church in Rome JD; all believers are in and in Christ there is no separationbetween these ppl so why are you making one here? I am making one because Paul did. CAn't you read? He is the one who speaks of G-E-N-T-I-L-E-S and J-E-W and and contrasts them in terms of hearing the law and not having heard the law. You deny this?Paul begins with this scenario. Now I know that this is no longer true - but Paul is using this very distinction to teach that in Christ's economy, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is no longer important.Not only unimportant, it is no longer there unless the Jews are still practicing Judaism. Rememberthis is written in 57 AD 24yrs after the cross and in Rom 2:11 Paul announces that God shows NO partiality. "non-partiality" IS NOT the theme of this section of Romans 2, Judy ......inwardness verses the letter of the law is, hearing versus doing. In the passage THE GENTILE IS ONLY ONE DOING THE WUILL OF GOD BY NATURE......the Jew is not.T he Gentile - typically speaking - is not God's chosen while the Jew is -- typically speaking . Using this stereotype, Paul makes the point that is most shocking to the Jewish Christian in Rome.......... hearing is not the most important issue ---- doing is.Why would Paul contradict (by what you see as a stereotype) what he had just said in Vs.11 JD?This makes no sense at all. The Jews had been trying to do God's Law since Moses came down from Mt. Sinai unsuccessfully. Judy, in Romans 2:23, who is NOT keeping the law -- the Jew or the Gentile? And who is doing the deeds of the law by "nature?"The contrast of hearing and doing is unmistakable in 2:13-14. Hence, the Gentile has not heardthe law.It is not there JD, you are reading this into the text. This is the perfect example of bias overwhelming reason. You are so convinced of the notion that unregenerated man cannot understand the will of God nor accomplish anything good that you cannot see what is being said here in Romans 2: 11ff. You don't see the words "Gentiles" and "Jew" in this text? You don't see the words "by nature" associated with the Gentiles only in this passage? You can't see this?It's the old "us vs them" mentality that isaccepted in many church circles. Think about it in light of the fall of man and the old sin natureHow is an unregenerate gentile who has never heard God's Law going to do it by nature? Theywould not even know what to do - never having been told.As far as unregenerated man not being able to do good -- why did Jonah go to Nineveh?Jonah was a prophet who had a ministry gift working in his life which he was trying to run from. Judy, you chuck and jive, giving no answers because your theology has no answers. It is empty. NEWS FLASH: NINEVEH REPENTED.The Roman believer (Jew or gentile) would have to be regenerated to 'DO BY NATURE' what is written in God's Law. Love is the fulfillment of the law and an unregenerated gentile would be unable to do this. Paul was speaking to the Church at Rome wasn't he?Not in Romans 2. He was addressing the Judaizing legalists of the Roman church in chapters 2, 3, 4.No he wasn't JD; the letter begins with an introduction and then in Vs.7 Paul writes "To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints ... this is who the letter is written to -the called out ones. Chapters 2,3,4 and 5 will have special import to the Jew. Romans 2:23 is a question of the Jewish Christian only, Judy.And , as often as not, he fails in this doing , by the way. If the phrase "by nature" means to include the indwelling of the Spirit, then the Jew in this passage DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT, for he is clearly NOT doing the law "by nature." Your theology of Ro 2 has the Jew , in this passage lost and without the Spirit. But, of course, you do not believe that a nd so away you go.My so called theology is not judging any Jew one way or the other.I am not talking about judging the Jew, Judy. I am talking about your theology. First, you imply that "by nature" means the new nature, but then, in this passage only the Gentile has this "nature" thing going for him which means that the Jew does not. Paul is making a contrast between what is done "by nature" and what is not. You simply cannot sneak the Holy Spirit into any of this without serious contextual problems -- one of which I have mentioned. "By nature" simply cannot mean to include the "new nature."Why make this so complicated JD. The focus from Vs.6 on is "obeying the truth" vs judgment no matter which way one receives the truth as opposed to the wrath and fury that comes with disobedience - By Vs.12 Paul writes "All who have sinned without the law will also perish withoutthe law and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. I see no statement aboutthe spiritual condition of the Jews here at all. Judy, answer the question: does "by nature" mean "by his new nature?" Let's just go one step at a time. Let's just deal with this issue. One question -- hopefully one answer.
