Blaine, the shotgun effect was not the intent. This was not an argument against the Mormon religion . Rather, it was (and is) a collection of differences between the two world religions -- yours and mine. I suppose any of the 8 points are critical, but the matter of the redemptive action of God is the most critical to me. The debate over the cross tells me that the larger teaching concerning the sacrifical Christ is vastly different.. This teaching is at the very heart of the Christian Faith. And since the biblcial teaching is a part of the First and PreApostate Scriptures, I have no reason to accept whatever the differences are between Mormonism and Christianity on this matter.
Perhaps you could explain the Mormon teaching on redemption, its relationship to the Old Law, its affirmation of the (immanent) triune God, its continuing and forgiving effect in the lives of man, especially the disciples of Christ, the place of the cross in Mormonism versus Christianity, the contrast of the blood shed on the cross to the blood of bulls and goats. I could go on. Suffice it to say that the teaching on the Sacrifice of Christ is not a one liner in the biblcial account.
Anyway -- if you wanted to start there, great. A public discussion with one of your buds would even be better.
jd
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You raise far too many issues for me to take time with--one of the rules of TT as I have understood them is to keep it simple--so, choose whatever, and I will try to deal with it. But the shotgun approach is too time consuming, OK? Thanks for you reply and your interestBlainerbIn a message dated 12/17/2005 6:30:41 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:BLOOD is the key word, I think--which he shed in large quantities in Gethsemane--apparently more than he actually shed on CalvarySweat AS IF drops of blood. Isn't this the wording of the biblical text? I don't know that there was any blood in Gethsemane except by the hand of Peter. But, if there was , it was "drops." After the garden, He was beaten nearly to death and on the cross, we have the wounds in his hands and feet, the blood from the thorny crown and the wound to His side. Blaine, really, you couldn't be more mistaken on this one. But more than this, the First Scriptures do not attach atonement significance to Gethsemane.So, for me, I have learned from the Mormon representatives several issues that separate us :1. They have a "right church" view of the Christian assembly and membership in the "right church" is critical to what happens in the next life.2. The grace that saves is neither separated from works of law, nor is it unmerited in that sense. Mormonism is a works salvationist religion.3 The Mormon view of Jewish history is vastly different from the Jewish view of Jewish history - especially as it applies to the "lost tribes," but, also as it applies to the Jewish teachings of blood sacrifice for sin, the failings of a law-based relationship with God and the importance of the death of Christ from a Jewish point of view ....................... crtical differences, all.4. Mormon scripture cannot be verified by anyone other than the Mormon faithful.5. The biblical doctrine (the "Frist Scriptures") teaches a very different Jesus than that of the Mormon religion.6. The "atonement" doctrine between Christianity and Mormonism is markedly different. This difference can be most easily seen as one Faith gives emphasis to the cross and the shedding of blood while the other does not. If the two representatives of Mormonism are typical, those in the Christian Faith may assume that the notion of the shedding of blood is not understood as it relates to the Law, to the cross or to the continuing forgiveness of the saint.7. They cannot answer questions as to the differences between the First Scriptures (written and given to a church the Mormons believe to be in good standing - before the "apostasy") and the those scriptures given some 1800 years later. The differences are remarkable in terms quanity and substance. The Mormon notion that the First Chruch was the Right Church demands that the teaching of that first church is both completely revealed and correct. There should be no difference between the First Scriptures and the Mormon seconds.8. Mormon organization and church terminology is markedly different from the biblical church or the pre-apostate church of history. If we beleive that God "did it right" the first time, in regards to the church, there should be no reason for any differences between the Mormon church and scripture and that of the First Church and the First Scriptures.Note: it is not my intention to outline all of the difference, only those that are of significance to me, those that make the Mormon Faith an impossible religion to defend as "Christian" from my point of view. I would love the opportunity to share in a public discussion of these issues.How does this affect their place in the sight of God? My personal view is this: Joe Smith knew full well that he was an imposture. Few others would have this knowledge. I do believe that God will take this into consideration as the judge of such things. Only because of the truth of the incarnation and the unmerited nature of grace do any of us have a chance at all. God is bigger than any of our failings and the name of Jesus need not be uttered to have redeeming value.jd-------------- Original message --------------
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BLOOD is the key word, I think--which he shed in large quantities in Gethsemane--apparently more than he actually shed on Calvary. When he returns he will be wearing red--right? This is a symbol of his blood drenching his entire body, which it did not do on the cross. In fact, other than the wounds in his hands, feet, and sides, little blood was shed on the Calvary cross.Blainerb
