Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!

[Dave]

I see power in the cross. You see defeat. DAVEH:  The power of the cross as I see it was the ability of it to actually bring death to Jesus.  That is not to say that I don't think Jesus had any power over the cross to prevent his death from occurring on it.  Quite the contrary.....I think Jesus could easily have avoided being nailed to the cross, as he could have called legions of angels to protect him from his enemies.  But...that would not have permitted the plan of salvation to proceed as it had been planned from before the foundations of the world.     You are right though....I do not view the cross as having any good power at all.  It was a tool of the enemies of Jesus, and he allowed himself to be subjected to it in order to become the perfect sacrifice.   The power of Jesus is in his resurrection which brought life, not in the cross which brought death.  The cross killed Jesus just as it killed those who were nailed to it before, since and at the same time.      Now....you have said that I view the cross as defeating Jesus.  I don't perceive it that way at all.  What temporary victory the enemies of Jesus may have felt by his death on the cross was certainly reversed by his subsequent resurrection.   But his resurrection did not occur on the cross.   From the time Jesus died on the cross and was subsequently resurrected on the 3rd day thereafter, Jesus experienced hell.  By the time Jesus was resurrected, the cross was old history, so to speak.     Do you think the cross had any power to resurrect Jesus?  I'd be surprised if you do, DavidM.  SO.....why do you suggest the cross has any power?     I view the cross as a symbol of death, whether it is the death of people buried in a cemetery or the cross worn by Christians or the cross that adorns Christian edifices which symbolizes the death of Jesus.  It is a symbol of death, which I perceived you to say........ a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. ..........which doesn't seem to different from what I said.     I realize that many Christians use the cross to symbolize Jesus, effectively their view of his power over the cross.  IF he had been stoned, would those same Christians be wearing a symbol of a stone around their neck, or adorning their edifices?  Or, what if Jesus had been killed by a spear....say the spear that was used to lance his skin to make sure he was dead, had the cross not killed him?  Would those same Christians then use a spear as their symbol?   Just where does the power of Christ reside....in the device (whether it be a stone, spear or cross) used to kill him, or in his innate power as God?     Do you believe Mary or any of the Primitive Christians used the cross as a symbol in the same way many do today?  If not, then why do some Christians today feel differently than did the Primitive Christians? David Miller wrote: David Miller wrote: ... a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. Dave Hansen wrote: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this not true? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.