The (biblical) fact is this: He died
on the cross at the hands of others.
DAVEH: I agree, John. What do you think caused Jesus to suffer so
much in the Garden of Gethsemane?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
some
differences in our views.
DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry......It seems to me the main difference
is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus
from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective,
Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without
needing a 3rd party. you contrast the
theoretical with the (biblical) reality. The (biblical) fact is
this: He died on the cross at the hands of others. Converting
the theoretical into a "fact" puts you (or anyone) at the center of
your faith.
As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the
atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been
unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from
returning from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed
the deal....which is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement
was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take
effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished.
I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden
DAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to
literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit
odd....effectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the
dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he
would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do
many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then
think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on
the other hand one would think (as you d id below) that he suffered
such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could
he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane?
He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered
physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin.
DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of
sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus
had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I
perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature
of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate
issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry?
until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ
took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and
at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done.
DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me t hat you
would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most
Christians?
Terry Clifton wrote:
I
appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand
what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would
like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our
views.
I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden
much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to
have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein
from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting
for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be
avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come.
There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be
killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester,
but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of
every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly inn ocent
person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin poss
ible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He
suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically
later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin.
He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the
flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had
multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of
stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of
flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before
they could be nailed to the cross.
Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that
certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the
weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage
cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must
push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This
is hard to do when any pressure on your feet c auses pain because of
the spike that nailed them to the c
ross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating,
first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no
relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated
when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their
ability to breath.
With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be
broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet.
At the moment He cried out, "My God, My God, why have You
forsaken Me", He paid the price for our sins. Up until that
time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of
the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus
was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done.
When He had done this, He gave up the ghost. No soldier took His
life. He laid it down, for you and for me. When the soldier plunged
the spear into His side, it would have lacerated the liver, and any
blood left in His body would have been almost completely drained from
it. Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins on that cross. His
lifeless body was taken down from it.
Just a final thought: The Bible I use says that every saved person is
part of a royal priesthood. Jesus our Lord is high priests, and every
follower of His is one of His priests. That tells me that the first
black priest was the Etheopean eunuch that Phillip Baptized long before
1978.
I hope you can see this.
Terry
the
Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the
sins of the world.
DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of
Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on
the cross.
I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably
able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are
requesting. As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of
Gethsemane. Why? I believe it was because he was bearing the burden
of our sins at that time....in effect, taking upon himself our sins.
Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores. At the Last Supper,
he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed......
[Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given
thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it .
[24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many.
..........and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly
after the Last Supper.
The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as
well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding
blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with
a spear. I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the
physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that
cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great
suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden
of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of
taking our sins upon himself. What do you believe brought enough pain
to Jesus that it caused him to bleed from every pore in the Garden,
John?
In order for the atonement to be functional......yikes, that is
probably not the best word t o describe it, but I cannot think of a
more appropriate t
erm at the moment...... for each of us, Jesus had to provide a way for
us to be resurrected. Without the resurrection, no atoning sacrifice
would benefit those who are bound by (physical) death. Jesus was the
only person who could accomplish the resurrection, and for that to
happen, he had to die. The pain he suffered in the Garden of
Gethsemane was not sufficient to bring death, but that which he
experienced on the cross was more than adequate. Nobody could kill
Jesus had he not been willing to die. Jesus had the power to call
angels to his side to prevent his death there, but in lieu of
that......the cross provided the means to bring about his physical
death.
So, the cross was the tool used by Jesus' enemies to kill him. He
rose from the tomb on the 3rd day, which then made it possible for all
to be resurrected. This gift of grace was freely given to all mortals,
who had inherited physical death from Adam.& nbsp; Just as all who
are born on this earth have no cont
rol (or option) as to whether or not they will die, Jesus overcame that
obstacle for us.
Had we not been able to overcome physical death, the need
for the atonement would have been a non-issue. Since by virtue of
the Lord's resurrection all will be resurrected, it then became
possible for the atonement to be available for those who desire it.
And as I've mentioned before, those who desire to overcome spiritual
death need only to accept and love the Lord by keeping his commandments.
Now the question becomes why do we need the atonement at all? If
all are to be resurrected, what advantage is there for an atonement?
That is where we need to consider the effect spiritual death has upon
us. As I've defined it before, spiritual death happens when we are
separated from God. Effectively, the further we are from the love of
the Lord, the deeper in hell we reside, so t o speak. In order to
overcome that form of hell (an
d there are several), those who love the Lord seek to become one with
him. To do that, we need to become perfect as God is perfect. Since
God is without sin, and we are sinners....that seems like an
impossibility. However, by virtue of the atonement of our Redeemer,
those who accept Jesus as their Savior can have their sins remitted,
and hence become perfect (complete) as God is perfect.....and become
closer to and one with our Heavenly Father and Jesus.
As I suggested before, without the possibility of a resurrection,
the atonement would be of little effect, as physical death would
confine us to hell.
This explanation may be a bit brief, if not a little
awkward......but I hope it answers your question, John.
have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our
Mormon friends?
DAVEH: I don't see why you would think such, John. Evidence of the
apos tasy was already showing itself at the time the NT was be
ing written, as Acts 20 suggested....
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves
enter in among you, not sparing the flock
..........and Paul affirmed in his epistle to the Galatians.....
[1:6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that
called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would
pervert the gospel of Christ.
...........and to the Corinthians......
[1:11] For it hath been declared unto me of you, my
brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are
contentions among you.
.........So as I see it, the apostasy had already started in the NT
times.
why is Mormon doctrine and church organization so different
from what we read and know of the First Church and its scriptures?
DAVEH: It could be for several reasons. First, your perspe ctive of
the Primitive Church may have changed as religion
/theology evolved over the centuries. For instance, the early
Christians eschewed the cross, yet most religions readily embrace it
today.
From our (LDS) perspective, having a living prophet allows the Lord
to guide his Church in the direction he wishes it to go depending on
the needs of the time. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but to
LDS folks it is very logical. IOW....We believe that the Lord reveals
such things as the 1978 revelation allowing black males to be allowed
the priesthood because it was appropriate for that to happen at that
time. Without a prophet, such events could not occur. The same thing
happens with specific programs and organizations in the LDS Church.
Though such may not have existed in the Primitive Church, that does not
mean that it should not occur in the latter-day Church, depending on
what the Lord determines our needs to be.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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