Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus -- God nor Man

[Judy Taylor]

 

 

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:57:20 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

It is really sad that Bill says I can't be saved unless I accept his kind of orthodoxy. 

 

No, Bill is using the Bible to correct you, and to exhort you to change your mind, Judy.

 

You don't have understanding of the Bible Bill.  You are using Words to make everything biological completely missing the main point. Sin is a spiritual issue with a biological ripple

effect generationally.  God is a spirit. Satan is a spirit.  Sin/righteousness are not

biological issues.

 

Your doctrine of generaltional curse says otherwise. 

 

Not so JD, generational curses are also spiritual in nature.  God's law in fact is both spiritual and holy. It is sin that makes us want to make everything to look and act just like us.

 

You have said that Adam and Eve changed -  in nature and became a different (fallen) being. That is saying that the "fall" effected their biology, Judy.  Why is this so difficult? 

 

Their biology was affected - yes because death entered paradise and things were forever changed.

 

Quite frankly THE ONLY PEOPLE I have problems understanding  --  and I mean the only people  _ are you and DM.  You are looking for a way out every time you say anything.   Just say it --  whatever it is   --  and stick to your guns instead of telling the rest of us , over and over again, that we do not understand you.  

 

You don't show any evidence of the above claim in your responses - to me anyway. I can't speak

for DM

 

We do understand you  -- we just cannot predict your manner of defense.   Your  theology develops in "likeness" to the workings of a pinball machine, bouncing from one obstacle to the next  with no one ever knowing where you are going.  Is is completely unpredictable.   No one elses is.  Why? 

Do answer - just think about it. 

 

Probably yours is predictable because someone has it outlined in a big book somewhere.

 

You want to spiritualize the Seed doctrine, when the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is the Seed of David

according to flesh.

 

Sperma isn't the only kind of seed discussed in scripture Bill and I am not taking anything out of context in order to "spiritualize" it.  The order is first the natural and then the spiritual.  Adam/David are the natural.  Jesus is the Promise which is spiritual.  The first Adam was a living soul.  The second Adam is a life-giving Spirit.

 

Are you saying that Jesus did not come the actual seed of David?  If your "spiritual seed" is not your "natural seed,"  we have yet another nuance that is uniquely JudyTaylor.  Not necessarily a bad thing, by the way

 

Not Judy Taylor JD.  It is Jesus.  Read Matt 22:42-46; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42.  Your doctrine is that of the scribes and pharisees JD.

 

Again,  is Jesus biologically related to those named in the genealogies or not?  I say yes. 

 

Tell me why this is so important to you JD?  Islam has all kinds of evil going on between those who claim to be able to trace their genealogy back to the person of Mohammad.  Genealogies are not

given in scripture for the same reasons.  It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

 

 

And if it is according to the flesh that Christ was born, and this of David's seed, then what flesh do you think John is speaking of when he ascribes the spirit of antichrist to those who deny it? I am not making a bigger deal of this than I ought, Judy. I want you to have every opportunity to know and understand the error of your doctrine, because, believe it or not, it does make a difference how you answer the question: "Who do you say that I am?"

 

I don't now and never have denied that Jesus was given and walked about in a flesh body Bill.  What I do deny is that is was a SINFUL AND FALLEN flesh body exactly and in every way like those He was sent to redeem.

 

What if I said that the fall of man took "sin " from the mind and thoughts of Satan and made it an  aspect of our very nature?  To be born with this "sinful" nature is not the problem.   To allow that nature to rule one's life is.  Christ was born with this same nature  -  as a result, He is temptable.    His holiness or perceived unholiness (due to the existence of this "sinful" nature) is resolved in the fact that He is God  -- and God is holy.   He is not holy because God the Father solved some sort of theoretical problem.  Rather, He is holy because and only because GOD IS HOLY. 

 

Your rationalizing falls short JD because God can not be tempted by evil ... So you can't have it both

ways - That is a Jesus who has a "sinful nature" just like us and one who is also wholly God who

can not be tempted by evil.  You will have to explain some scriptures away or cut them out.

 

And you have nothing but rationalistic thinking to support your solutions.  What , specifically, is wrong with what I said above? 

 

You are promoting a mixture of good and evil in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ - which mixture God HATES.  His way is to be totally one or the other because no man can serve two masters and a double souled person is unstable in all of their ways.

 

I believe that He defeated sin in his person by the same powers available to me as I walk in the Spirit.  

 

No, he defeated the powers of darkness with the Word of God and there was no sin in his being.  Look at John 2:24,25 - "He would not commit himself unto ppl because he knew all men and needed not that any should testify of man for he knew what was in man."  The fact that he had no personal sin nature of his own to have to deal with is also documented.  See Jn 12:31 where Jesus says "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out" and Jn 14:30  where he says "Hereafter I will not talk much with you for the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me" (see no fallen nature in him); later he explains further see Jn 16:11 "Of judgment because the prince of this world is judged"  Now who do you suppose that might be JD?

 

He was taught the ways of life  (Acts 2:28).  He was made like me in every respect.  He experienced temptation and even death   .....   that death which brings Him to an end as a result of sin.  But because He was truly innocent,  death could not lay hold of His demise.  

 

Double talk again JD.  Impossible for him to be made like you in every respect and ATST to be truly innocent.  Because the "prince of this world" has a stake in you.

 

Not true at all.   YOU are the one who says that scripture cannot possibly be taken literally when it says that He was made as we are, in every respect !!  

 

Not when taking these verses as literally as you want to take them to prove your point means that the plain meaning of other verses become contradictory.

 

Do you think to change your theology in light of scripture.  No !!  Rather , you introduce a line of JudyLogic that effectivly changes the literal meaning of the passage and solves the problem you , and yoou along, have with this concept.  

 

Not me and me alone JD; there are a lot of believers who reject the notion that Jesus was born into this world with a sin nature.

 

But you deny the sasmeness of Christ's humanity because He is oure and holy , while, at the same time, deying that He is God  which makes Him holy.   You ascribe this holiness to the recetion of the Spirit at His baptism, apparently  -  so was He holy and and blameless before the Spirit?  Houston, we.ve got a problem   !!!  

 

I haven't said the first thing about the recreation of any spirit at Jesus' baptism - where did you get this from?  I say he was born to Mary & Joseph a pure and holy baby and that he never lost it.  It was obvious to Anna and Simeon at the temple and the fullness of the Holy Spirit was there from birth also.  His Baptism was the start of his public ministry.

 

Deal with the probelm instead of insulting me, please.   I already know all those things you are about to write (in love , of course) so just skip over that trash and get real with the discussion.  

 

I'm being as real as I know how to be JD.... Your view is just plain impossible by God's own standard, not mine.  You were born into this world cursed. He was born the pure and holy son of God.

 

Sin is not counted against me unless and until I know what I am doing.  Do you need scripture on this?  

 

Oh well!  Death reigned from Adam to Moses - do you suppose they knew what they were doing??  Only 8 ppl made it through the flood in the days of Noah.

 

You, yourself , have said that "sin is a violation of the law."   Under the Law,  were children sinners, in need of blood sacrifice?  What do you think, Judy?   I say no !! 

 

At the time of the Passover it was a lamb for a household which I am sure included children.

 

So I was born pure and holy in regard to sin.   If you don't believe that, then you believe that all dead infants go straight to hell  --  as well as all unrepentant morons.   Is that what you think? 

 

We are not discussing dead infants and urepentant morons here JD.  We are discussing you and me and the Lord Jesus Christ.  We are born fallen.  He was not.

 

 

 

 His victory over sin and death (this is to be spoken as if it were one word (sin.and.death )  involves His complicite activity  (strange as it might seem) --  perhaps proving that death by sin is always the case and death inspite of sin is fully not the case.    And so, it is not that I will live again so much as  I will never die. 

 

Please don't let your disdain for people (and this your elder brothers in Christ) cloud your ability to affirm truth when it is presented to you.

 

I reject the accusation above since I have no disdain for persons - only the doctrines that do not conform them to godliness and holiness .... You know Bill God juxtaposes the two kinds of seed in Genesis 3:15. I wonder whose loins the seed of the adversary came through.

 

They (feminine plural) came through the loins of Adam, just as did every human being who came after him. All that Adam was capable of producing after his fall and subsequent removal from the Garden was human beings destined to die. Yet for some reason the first fallen words out of his mouth -- that is, after their encounter with God -- were ones which changed his wife's name from "Woman," the one who had been made from his flesh, etc., to "Eve," the mother of all who live.

 

So are you saying the Gen 3:15 prophecy refers to Eve rather than to Mary or to both of them?

 

Judy, if Jesus is not of Eve's blood then she is not his mother. Her flesh is not his flesh and her "Seed" (masculine singular) does not reach him. The truth is, however, that it does! Adam was privy to something that you deny. He calls her the mother of all the living.

 

It is possible to be biolgically living and still be spiritually dead Bill. 

 

Something was going to spring from her womb that was going to justify life for all life. Follow the Seed promised to Eve throughout the Old Testament and you will discover an amazing story. Let that Seed pass through Seth, and Noah, and Abraham, and Jacob, and Judah, and David, and let it find fulfillment in the womb of Mary, and you will begin to realize the promise. But spiritualize it into abstraction and you could end up missing it all. Bill

 

Noone is spiritualizing anything into "abstraction" Bill.  Are you willing to let God be God or not?  Jesus did not come to make some biological statement - or to carry demonized humanity off to heaven.  He was pure and holy at his birth which is a claim NOT ONE OTHER biological human being has been able to make since Adam fell and this includes John the Baptist who was spirit filled from his mother's womb.

 

When God sent Jesus believe me He was not making a BIOLOGICAL STATEMENT and striving over words

while clinging to erroneous doctrine only makes it worse.  Why did Jesus say to Nicodemus:

 

"If I have told you earthly things and you believe not, how shall you believe if I tell you of heavenly things" (Jn 3:12).