Re: [TruthTalk] The Secular versus the Religious

[Kevin Deegan]

Patrick henry and Baptists without Permits

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0527.htm

Three Baptist preachers were brought to trial for preaching.

 

 

http://www.bjcpa.org/resources/pubs/pub_truett_address.htm

Baptists and Religious Liberty

NOT TOLERATION, BUT RIGHT

Baptists have one consistent record concerning liberty throughout all their long and eventful history. They have never been a party to oppression of conscience. They have forever been the unwavering champions of liberty, both religious and civil. Their contention now, is, and has been, and, please God, must ever be, that it is the natural and fundamental and indefeasible right of every human being to worship God or not, according to the dictates of his conscience, and, as long as he does not infringe upon the rights of others, he is to be held accountable alone to God for all religious beliefs and practices. Our contention is not for mere toleration, but for absolute liberty.

 

In Zurich there stands a staue in honor of Zwingli, in which he is represented with a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other. That statue was the symbol of the union between church and state. The same statue might have been reared to Luther and his fellow reformers. Luther and Melancthon fastened a state church upon Germany, and Zwingli fastened it upon Switzerland.  Knox and his associates fastened it upon Scotland. Henry VIII bound it upon England, where it remains even till this very hour.

These mighty reformers turned out to be persecutors like the Papacy before them. Luther unloosed the dogs of persecution against the struggling and faithful Anabaptists. Calvin burned Servetus, and to such awful deed Melancthon gave him approval. Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes, shut the doors of all the Protestant churches, and outlawed the Huguenots. Germany put to death that mighty Baptist leader, Balthaser Hubmaier, while Holland killed her noblest statesman, John of Barneveldt, and condemned to life imprisonment her ablest historian, Hugo Grotius, for conscience' sake. In England, John Bunyan was kept in jail for twelve long, weary years because of his religion, and when we cross the mighty ocean separating the Old World and the New, we find the early pages of American history crimsoned with the stories of religious persecutions. The early colonies of America were the forum of the working out of the most epochal battles that earth ever knew for the triumph of religious and civil liberty.

Outlaw baptists

http://www.gospelcenterchurch.org/baptiststorytwo.html

”It is ordered and agreed that if any person or persons within this jurisdiction shall either openly condemn or oppose the baptizing of infants, to go about secretly to seduce others from the approbation, or use thereof, or shall purposely depart the congregation during the administering of the ordinance, after due time and conviction, every such person or persons shall be sentenced to banishment”

 

"...You remember that Virginia had for a time a law prohibiting a Baptist preacher from preaching at all. That was finally modified to where one and only one Baptist preacher was allowed in a County. He was allowed to preach once every two months, later modified to once every month, and only in one definite place in the County, but then only in the daytime...NEVER at night....and the sheriff had to be present when he preached.  That was religious liberty in Virginia, in the old U.S.A.  (The Church of England was the ‘official’ Church of Virginia back in those early days, and Baptists were considered ‘heretics’ because they taught that baptizing babies was wrong.)"

"Laws were passed not only in Virginia but in the colonies everywhere positively forbidding any Mission work.  This was why Judson, a Baptist, was the first foreign missionary....law forbade him to do mission work here in America!"

 

In New York, an ordinance in 1662 imposed a severe fine on anybody who should even be present at an illegal (Baptist) meeting or church service!  (Vedder, p303)

Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://www.present-truth.org/Roger-Williams/R-WilliamsTOC.htm

Roger Williams was the apostle of a doctrine which in time became the fundamental tenet of American philosophy of civil government–the proposition that the civil authorities have no jurisdiction over the conscience in religious matters, and that the civil government is divinely ordained to function “in civil things only.”

Roger Williams coined the term "wall of separation" later used by Jefferson.

 

http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/gen_assembly/RiConstitution/C01.htm

Section 3. Freedom of religion.

 

http://www.visitrhodeisland.com/facts_history/history.aspx

Forced to flee Massachusetts because of persecution, Williams established a policy of religious and political freedom in his new settlement...

Rhode Island was the first colony to prohibit the importation of slaves.

Rhode Island's independent spirit was still in evidence at the close of the Revolutionary War. It was the last of the 13 original colonies to ratify the U.S. Constitution, demanding that the Bill of Rights, which guarantees individual liberties, be added.

 

http://www.zbt.org/philanthropy/RWD_pressrelease.htm

ZBT National President Taylor commented, "Roger Williams was centuries ahead of his time; he defined and set the standard for the fundamental principles of religious freedom and separation of church and state long before the creators of our Constitution. His legacy of religious tolerance has allowed America to become the envy of the world, a country where religious, racial and ethnic hatred are not tolerated."

http://users.erols.com/igoddard/roger.htm

Williams was exiled by law from Salem in the Massachusetts Bay Colony after being repeatedly hauled before the Salem Court of witch-trial fame for spreading "diverse, new, and dangerous opinions" that questioned the Church...

Perhaps most heretical among Roger's many "dangerous opinions" was challenging the King of England's claim to the American colonies with the counter-claim that the rightful owners of the land were the native Americans

Roger Williams tried to persuade his fellow European settlers to respect the land claims of Native Americans and live and trade with them as neighbors, not kill them

 

http://allisonkaplansommer.blogmosis.com/history/015624.html

New York May Have Been The First Place the Jews Came To in the New World, But Newport, Rhode Island Was The First Place They Were Welcome

 

http://www..constitution.org/bcp/religlib.htm

A PLEA FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY

First, that the blood of so many hundred thousand souls of Protestants and Papists, spilt in the wars of present and former ages, for their respective consciences, is not required nor accepted by Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace.

It is the will and command of God that, since the coming of his Son the Lord Jesus, a permission of the most Paganish, Jewish, Turkish, or anti-christian consciences and worships be granted to all men in all nations and countries: and they are only to be fought against with that sword which is only, in soul matters, able to conquer: to wit, the sword of God's Spirit, the word of God.

 

http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/williams/btp.htm

THE BLOUDY TENENT OF PERSECUTION 1644

 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Interesting.

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

BTW

It was the Baptists that were killed beaten banished. It was unlawful to be Baptist in America until the revolutionary War except in Rhode Island founded by Baptists. It was these same Baptists that accepted into RI, the Jews and every other form of religion to freely worship as they saw fit. They also were the first to be fair with the Indians and claimed that the puritans/pilgrims should reimburse the Indians for the Land.

 

Roger Williams taught these concepts long before Locke.

Some say RW had a great influence on the Bill of Rights right down to the wording, and RI was the only state that would not join the Union UNTIL the bill of rights was attached.

 

The reformers never fully reformed and are thus Reformed Catholics to this day.

Calvin & Luther had beliefs that they had no courage of conviction.

The Bold reformers became as gentle as a mouse when it came to certain beliefs.

David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Some of the conflict recently has involved the ideology of whether or not a list like TruthTalk should be a secular list or a Christian list.  There is a more general topic involved here that concerns our Bill of Rights and the concept of separation of church and State.  I would like for us to discuss this topic.

 

The First Amendment of our U.S. Constitution says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."  The historical backdrop for how this law came to be written partly concerns how the Anglican church became the national religion of England since the time of King Henry the VIII.  There is this history that when Roman Catholicism was the official religion, Protestants were put to death, and when the Anglicans came into power, a blood bath ensued against the Roman Catholics.  Many came to be against the idea of theocracy because of these abuses.  The idea that men should have freedom of religion came to mean that government should not favor one religion over another, nor should religious _expression_ be infringed upon.  Hence, our U.S. Constitution adopted this First Amendment.

 

The interesting question is whether or not true believers can work within a secular system, or indeed, whether they can themselves establish and maintain secular systems.  For example, how does a Bible believing Christian function in public office, whether as a Judge in the court system, as Mayor or Governor, or as President?  Our public educational system involves this same secular philosophy.  The idea is that no religious body or philosophy should control it.  Can Christians participate effectively in such?  Can Christians be school teachers, principals, or even establish schools of education based upon secularism? 

 

Let me put forth the questions this way in order to give us a start.  If you were in the position of being able to establish a school, would you make it a Christian school or would you make it a secular school?  If you would make it a Christian school, why would you do that?  If secular, why? 

 

Also, if you were to make it a Christian school, would you think that a fellow Christian who established a secular school was wrong to do so?  If you were to make it a secular school, do you think the fellow Christian who established a Christian school would be unwise to do that?  How much freedom do we have as Christians to choose one over the other?

 

David Miller.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

---

Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

---

Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!