On 21.10.2015 12:26, Cédric Krier wrote: > On 2015-10-21 12:07, Albert Cervera i Areny wrote: >> 2015-10-20 21:53 GMT+02:00 Cédric Krier <cedric.kr...@b2ck.com>: >>> On 2015-10-20 21:17, Jordi Esteve wrote: >>>> El 20/10/15 a les 19:24, Cédric Krier ha escrit: >>>>> On 2015-10-20 19:07, Albert Cervera i Areny wrote: >>>>>> 2015-10-20 18:38 GMT+02:00 Cédric Krier <cedric.kr...@b2ck.com>: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was discussing about issue5016 [1] which is indeed a continuation of >>>>>>> issue4410 [2] and I came with the idea that we should remove the >>>>>>> invoice/credit_note type on the Invoice object. >>>>>>> Such types are really a big constraint that prevent us to generate mixed >>>>>>> documents (half invoice and half credit note). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So the idea will be to migrate the credit note to negate the quantity >>>>>>> and keep in type only 'in' / 'out' (aka 'supplier' / 'customer'). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only difficulty will be for the sequence. Until now, we have the >>>>>>> possibility to use different sequences for invoice and credit note. I >>>>>>> think the way to manage such change will be to warn early enough users >>>>>>> that such configuration will no more be possible in the future and so >>>>>>> people should configure the next fiscalyear by using unique sequence for >>>>>>> both types in prevision of the future migration. >>>>>> We need both sequences in Spain as it is a legal requirement [1]. >>>>> Could you point to which page? >>>> Page 23: >>>> >>>> ==== >>>> Número y, en su caso, serie. La numeración de las facturas dentro de cada >>>> serie debe ser correlativa >>>> >>>> Es obligatoria, en todo caso, la expedición en series específicas de las >>>> facturas siguientes: >>>> - Las rectificativas. >>>> ==== >>>> >>>> As Albert has said, credit notes could be removed and replaced by different >>>> invoice sequences, like account_invoice_multisequence module [1] does. >>> This doesn't say that invoice and credit note must have a different >>> sequence. >> It does. When it says that they need to be with specific sequences, it >> means that they must be different from standard invoices. "Facturas >> rectificativas" is the equivalent to credit notes. >> >>> But of course, customization of the invoice numbering will still be >>> possible. But they will have also to merge the two types. >>> >>>>>> Yet, >>>>>> it should not be all that difficult to choose the sequence depending >>>>>> on the sign of the invoice. >>>>> I think if you have really this constraint, this means that you can not >>>>> mix positive and negative lines on the same document otherwise it is not >>>>> consistent. >>>> It depends, Spanish legal requirements for credit notes are strict (page >>>> 38); summarizing credit notes in Spain must come from previous invoices. >>>> But >>>> you can have negative amounts in sales/purchases and generate a single >>>> invoice with mixed positive/negative amounts. >>> So I don't see that it is a requirement to have separated sequences >>> for each kind. >>> >> Indeed, in page 171 of the same document (and some other notes >> elsewhere in the same document) it states that it is not possible to >> have negative amounts in normal invoices if they are to invoice >> returning goods. Those should always be in a "Factura rectificativa" >> and should state the invoice of the goods that were delivered in the >> first place. > I think you are not looking at the important information. > In some way, we don't care how they named the document. What is > important is if there should be a clear separation between what we call > now invoice and credit note. If there is, what is the definition of an > invoice and a credit note? > I try to write down that definition. I try to take texts from legal documents where i was able to find the correct article. But we have to consider that there are different definitions between commercial common sense and tax law and this is the point where most of the confusion comes from.
What is an invoice? Article 220 (taken from [1]) Every taxable person shall ensure that, in respect of the following, an invoice is issued, either by himself or by his customer or, in his name and on his behalf, by a third party: (1) supplies of goods or services which he has made to another taxable person or to a non-taxable legal person; (2) supplies of goods as referred to in Article 33; (3) supplies of goods carried out in accordance with the conditions specified in Article 138; (4) any payment on account made to him before one of the supplies of goods referred to in points (1), (2) and (3) was carried out; (5) any payment on account made to him by another taxable person or non-taxable legal person before the provision of services was completed. So what is a credit note? Article 224 (taken from [1]) Invoices may be drawn up by the customer in respect of the supply to him, by a taxable person, of goods or services, where there is a prior agreement between the two parties and provided that a procedure exists for the acceptance of each invoice by the taxable person supplying the goods or services. Member State may require that such invoices be issued in the name and on behalf of the taxable person. So an credit note is just an invoice, but this invoice is not created by the company that is supplying the goods or services but from the customer. Some more information about credit notes in: Article 226 (taken from [1]) Without prejudice to the particular provisions laid down in this Directive, only the following details are required for VAT purposes on invoices issued pursuant to Articles 220 and 221: ... (10a) where the customer receiving a supply issues the invoice instead of the supplier, the mention “Self-billing”;’; (taken from [2] which is an extension of [1]) ... This case is the only case where tax law is talking about a credit note. You should look at the translations of your own country about the word that is used for 'self-billing' there. In german it is 'Gutschrift' which sound for me quite better translated into 'credit note' than 'self-billing'. But now comes the interesting part. If this is the only case where tax law talks about credit notes, how can we correct wrongly created invoice documents? And this is where we have to switch to commercial common sense. I you want to correct such a document you have to create a 'cancelation'. The german tax authority says that such a cancelation is not a credit note in the sense of value added tax law [3](site 4 right at the beginning) German tax authority also says that an invoice that contains lines for goods supplied/services provided as well as goods/services that are received from the other party the document must be called a credit note.[3](at the end of site 3) Please consider in your plans that a cancelation must create moves with negative amounts instead of the positive amounts an invoice or credit note creates. Maybe these informations will help you to figure out if it is really possible to remove the invoice and credit note type and only to keep the out/in part. I took a look into the SAP documentation and i found there the even 8 cases[4]: ininvoice, outinvoice. increditnote, outcreditnote, ininvoicecancelation, outinvoicecancelation, increditnotecancelation, outcreditnotecancelation I think we should investigate this topic really precise before making a decision. To your questions about the sequences i can say that it is common to have different sequences for credit notes and invoices but that it is (not yet) a legal requirement. But i think that if we would make a vote about this topic i think that the vast majority of community members would say: Please let us use different sequences for invoice and credit note like it is now. Cheers, Korbinian [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32006L0112 [2] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32010L0045 [3] http://www.sis-verlag.de/archiv/umsatzsteuer/verwaltungsanweisungen/6724-bmf-umsatzsteuer-ausstellung-von-rechnungen-aenderungen-der-14-14a-ustg-durch-das-amtshilferichtlinie-umsetzungsgesetz-bmf-umsatzsteuer-ausstellung-von-rechnungen-aenderungen-der-14-14a-ustg-durch-das-amtshilferichtlinie-umsetzungsgesetz (unfortunately i found this only in german docs) [4] http://help.sap.com/saphelp_erp60_sp/helpdata/de/0b/7e1c370246677be10000009b38f936/content.htm -- ___________________________________ virtual things Preisler & Spallek GbR München - Aachen Windeckstr. 77 81375 München Tel: +49 (89) 710 481 55 Fax: +49 (89) 710 481 56 i...@virtual-things.biz http://www.virtual-things.biz
