Here's the log from today's chat. Staying well clear of controversy the entire chat was about the Tuscany website. Everyone agreed it needs work and there's even a some volunteers. A proposal to move from using maven to gen the site to a simple toolkit based on velocity and xdoc, jboynes (i think, was a bit unclear) is going to make a strawman for this in the sandbox. A suggestion was that this makeover be done in time for the OSCON conference which is in two weeks.
...ant Session Start: Mon Jul 10 16:29:32 2006 Session Ident: #tuscany * Now talking in #tuscany <jsdelfino> hi <ant_> hi <kevin> hey * kgoodson has joined #Tuscany <dkulp> Hey <dwheeler> hi <rfeng> hi * Venkat has joined #tuscany * ant_ is now known as ant_backIn3Mins * simonnash has joined #Tuscany <simonnash> hi. Simon N here. * ant_backIn3Mins is now known as ant * ant is now known as ant_ <ant_> hi. everyones very quiet. what shall we chat about? * isilval__ has joined #tuscany <simonnash> there was post on dev list recently about some blog posts that were not complimentary to Tuscany or SCA * jliu has joined #tuscany <simonnash> we could talk about how we might respond to those blogs <Venkat> more than just responding to the blogs.. I think we must spruce the content on the wiki / website... to nail on the points that differentiate SCA * isilval has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <simonnash> that should be the website <ant_> actually yes I agree with that Venkat. I was sitting next to someone at the apachecon talk who knew nothing about Tuscany and he was looking at the webiste while the talk was going on <simonnash> the wiki is more for work in progress. we can use it to create the website content <ant_> his 1st comment was there was sooo much text on the home page <Venkat> and then some very general statements... <jboynes> I'd like to suggest simplifying the site and the site build <jboynes> Geir did something like this a long time ago for the Geronimo site <jboynes> and built a simple toolkit based on velocity and xdoc <jboynes> it's been picked up by a couple of other projects (incubator, jdo, harmony) <simonnash> yes. it needs to have "teaser" articles with a "more..." link * halehM has joined #tuscany <jboynes> I'd like to suggest switching to it rather than maven <jboynes> it may make it easier to get content on the site <simonnash> the history is way out of date. no bews since March!!! <simonnash> news <jboynes> and its content that we need :) <dwheeler> I'm going to agree that the site could really use some simplification. <dwheeler> when I was first trying to figure out exactly what tuscany was all about only a few weeks ago, the site was my main resource. * isilval_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <simonnash> the geronimo page has a bit more interesting layout <dwheeler> and it took reading quite a few white papers before I felt like I knew what tuscany/SCA was about. <halehM> what suggestions do you have David? <simonnash> tabs at the top are a nice touch... easy to hop about and get more info * Looking up dwheeler user info... <halehM> Geranmio page looks good to me as well. Everyone agrees? <ant_> well yes, but most people will know what a J2EE server which makes it easier for them <ant_> it woul dbe nice if we could have a kind of overview picture for SCA <halehM> So, can we talk about the message a bit. Right now we dump SCA, SDO, DAS in 3 different languages on the same page <ant_> something like http://incubator.apache.org/servicemix/ <cr22rc> we put a lot of content at the beginning to explain it some ... but it's a whole lot more difficult I think given the breath of techologies for tuscany sca / sdo /das also cpp java etc <dwheeler> It might help if there was a page with a few diagrams demonstrating the SCA orginization and integration. <dwheeler> Similiar to those in the SCA white paper. * gwinn has joined #tuscany <jboynes> perhaps we should focus the main message on SCA <Venkat> Yes... and different perspectives of details. I would start with what's in there for a Solution Developer... <Venkat> something that hooks developers to look into this paradigm of application development / design <halehM> So, hightlight how SCA solves SOA problem and then backup pages or tabs like Geranimo on SDO and DAS? <jboynes> something like http://maven.apache.org/ with the sub-bar with links to the other projects <Venkat> Is there a new paradigm to application design / assembly over here <jboynes> (m1, continuum, scm, ...) <Venkat> is that something that can catch the eye of people looking for new, cool stuff * jmarino has joined #tuscany <jboynes> I think we need that on the home page <halehM> What Ant pointed out is kind of nice as well. Highlights what the project does, provides a quick architecture diagram and outlines features: http://incubator.apache.org/servicemix/ <jboynes> hey, look, this is SCA and its cool - look at what it can do <kgoodson> yes, the servicemix site looks very inviting <jsdelfino> I think it would be nice to have a high level diagram that gives you an idea of what SCA is, without having to read a page of text <jmarino> sorry for joining late but are we just talking about the SCA part or the main landing page? <kevin> yes. a simple graphic on the first page is nice <kgoodson> i'm sure we have some foils that could form the basis of that <rfeng> yes, some diagrams from the SCA spec are good for this purpose <jsdelfino> one diagram about SCA, the other showing the architecture of the Tuscany runtime, and the component types and binding types we have <dkulp> Obviously, there is the issue of "diagram of sandbox" or "diagram of main" for the tuscany part..... <kgoodson> an image map, with links would be good, i went to click on the servicemix picture, but alas it doesn't take me anywhere <rfeng> good idea, same should apply to the SCA component/composite diagram. when you click on the reference, it should explain the "reference" concept in SCA <simonnash> cool <jboynes> cool <jboynes> let <jboynes> let <jboynes> let's not be over ambitious though <jboynes> I think first we need to just clean up that page :) <simonnash> yes, first things first <jsdelfino> there are some nice diagrams showing a composite in the Apache Con presentation <Venkat> yes but do we have a 'bigger' picture of Tuscany .. just like what is there for ServiceMix <jsdelfino> pages 4 and 5 of the presentation <jboynes> have we kind of agreed that the main page just shows sca with tabs off it for sdo, das etc. <kgoodson> i don't think the image map would be a substitute for all the text links, just as in good ui design, so we could do the basic clean up, and then refine from what we have the features that we'd like to have in a diagram. It migt be a good discipline though to have in the back of our mind that if were putting a link on the front page that couldn't be envisaged in the diagram, then it might... <kgoodson> ...not be the right place to put the link <cr22rc> By SCA do mean mostly highlight the assembly aspect? I mean up to now I think we tried to keep the technologies on an equal footing <jboynes> yes, the assembly/programming model stuff <jboynes> we did try to keep them equal <kgoodson> jboynes, that sounds like it tells the main message best <jboynes> but all the questions/flames are on sca and not the other techs <simonnash> is that a good reason to keep them equal? will it create even less interest if we move the others out? <kgoodson> but i don't want to do SDO/DAS a disservice, it still needs to be prominent <simonnash> i don't see it as first class and second class <simonnash> i see them as equal tabs, but we make the SCA tab the one that comes up first <jboynes> a bit like the maven site? <kgoodson> yes, that sounds good <kgoodson> (both simon and jeremy) <kevin> sounds good to me <kevin> SCA tab first, that is <Venkat> or if we weave up layers where we could project SCA & SDO in its repective space.. <simonnash> yes, like maven, though I prefer the "real tab" images on geronimo <kgoodson> venkat, by "weave up layers" did you mean something more that the tabs in the maven/geronimo sites? <simonnash> layers as in a 3D-like image of SCA/SDO/DAS? <Venkat> if you look at the service mix site... the figure there shows where BPEL or JCA comes in.. in the broader picture. <Venkat> similarly if we had a broader picture where we position SCA, SDO, DAS <Venkat> that will be good... I thought... <jboynes> taking a time check, do we have volunteers to work on this <jboynes> ? <jboynes> I'm willing to help <cr22rc> I'll help out some <kgoodson> yes, i'll chip in <Venkat> me too... with some help and guidance though :) <ant_> i can help but mainly in review and comments. I'm hopeless at graphic design, making websites etc <cr22rc> I assume that we are moving then away from maven as the tool for this? <kgoodson> i can do the imagemap stuff i think <rfeng> back to the blogs/comments, do we have a list of key points/complaints? <jboynes> I have some <kgoodson> i saw some tooling in the GIMP for doing this stuff that looked fairly simple <jboynes> cool <cr22rc> complaints? just catching up ... <jboynes> we got flamed around apachecone <rfeng> we should get a list and address the concerns in the format of blog/wiki/web site Q&A? <jboynes> I have some comments/clarifications but I think it would be good to get the site sorted first <cr22rc> since I put most of it up there ..guess I'm to blame <cr22rc> hey ... can we get those complains in the form a open jira ? <jboynes> otherwise w'll spur traffic and people will come to the site and it will just get worse <ant_> i have to go. ttyal... * ant_ is now known as ant_away <jboynes> I'd like to suggest we finish the makeover before oscon * monxton has joined #tuscany <jboynes> then we can blog/speak/evangelize there <jboynes> sound like a plan? <kevin> yes <kgoodson> yes, its definitely a plan, it just requires reemphasising things, and that my SDO development efforts are further delayed <kevin> i can help with the DAS page set up and content <jboynes> thanks <kevin> will need for a framework to be in place thoiugh <kgoodson> if that's what's best from for the project then fine <jboynes> any interest in using geir's toolkit rather than maven <jboynes> ? <jboynes> I've used it for editing the incubator site and it seems fairly simple <jmarino> he used it for Geronimo right? <cr22rc> can you give use a few urls to how to use it and then we get back on this ... tough to make a decision about something we don't know much about <cr22rc> or am I the only one ? <jboynes> there's a howto on editing the incubator site <jmarino> no I think it is a good idea to eval first <jboynes> I'd have to google it to find it <jboynes> how about a simple strawman in the sandbox? * jsisson has joined #tuscany <cr22rc> prototype in the sandbox ? <jboynes> yes <cr22rc> sounds good to me <jmarino> sounds good to me too <jboynes> can anyone here draw (do graphics) ? * jliu has left #tuscany <dwheeler> I can (to an extent) <jboynes> thanks - I can't draw to save my life :) <kgoodson> i'm good at pilfering and adapting, but original artwork is not my forte <dwheeler> I've done graphics work for a few websites before. <cr22rc> do have some rough samples from stuff that has been pitched before ? can put them in the sandbox as proposed starting points ? <cr22rc> Give us a target to talk about ? <jboynes> sounds good <kgoodson> so jejrmy's slides are at http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tuscany/site/src/site/resources/Tuscany%20ApacheConEU%202006.ppt <kgoodson> he suggested slide 4 and 5 as somewhere to start <kgoodson> someone kindly translated them to open office too i think <kgoodson> yes, https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tuscany/site/src/site/resources/Tuscany%20ApacheConEU%202006.sxi <Venkat> The diagrams on slide 4 & 5 in my opinion can come in for one level drill down ... for example if we had a block diagram where we could position SCA Application Assembly, say top on the stack, then clickin on this block could take you to another page where these two slide will fit well... <Venkat> I am posting on the mailing list a block diagram that I made for some personal understanding ... I don't claim that to be corrent or absolute :-) but maybe it will provide some triggers to coming up with the right and absolute one * monxton has left #tuscany * simonnash has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) * jmarino_ has joined #tuscany * Venkat has quit IRC * isilval__ has left #tuscany * jmarino has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) * rfeng has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) * pombreda has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) * kevin has quit IRC * kgoodson has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) * jmarino has joined #tuscany * pombreda has joined #tuscany * jsdelfino has left #tuscany * gwinn has left #tuscany * jmarino_ has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) * jmarino has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) * rfeng has joined #tuscany * dwheeler_ has joined #tuscany * dwheeler__ has joined #tuscany * dwheeler_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) * dwheeler_ has joined #tuscany * dwheeler__ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) * dwheeler_ has quit IRC ("Leaving") * dwheeler has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) * halehM has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) * kgoodson has joined #Tuscany * ajborley has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))