Begin forwarded message:
--From: Max Noel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: January 11, 2005 00:09:11 GMT To: "Alan Gauld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Tutor] Slightly OT - Python/Java
On Jan 10, 2005, at 20:04, Alan Gauld wrote:
Superior is a relative term. Java has lots of huge restrictions compared to C++ - the lack of operator overloading being maybe the biggest, since it prevents true sub typing of builtins and primitives - thus resulting in extra(and horrible) code.
Well, I've very rarely (if ever) used operator overloading, so I can't say I miss it much ;)
However, you have a point in that I don't like the fact that everything is not an object in Java. Leftover non-object types from C/C++ (int, float, et al.) stand out like sore thumbs; however I can see how the lack of operator overloading prevents them from disappearing. I'm not sure how it works in Python, though; can you subclass int, list, dict, etc.? Does it have operator overloading, or, missing that, a way to extent operators into classes?
And the lack of functionpointers (inner classes not withstanding) is a big hit, and what about multiple inheritance - interfaces suck!
True, the lack of function pointers is a problem, at least when working procedurally. When going full-OO, I don't see where this can be a problem (since Class itself is an object, you can create pointers to classes).
Also, I agree that interfaces are a bizarre way of adding multiple inheritance. I'm still wondering if there is a better way, though (apart from just allowing multiple inheritance, which I still don't know if it's a good idea or not).
Its also much slower - JIT compilers, and even native compilers, notwithstanding. I could go on...but...
Of course. I never suggested using Java to write 3D state-of-the-art games. For "standard" applications, though, it beats C/C++ any day of the week (worst-case scenario, you can still extend it in C, can't you? -- not sure about that).
And a JIT compiler (HotSpot) is a part of standard Java now, isn't it? So I think it is relevant. (native compilers like GCJ, however, aren't -- they kinda defeat the whole point of Java if you ask me)
It is however, a simpler language to learn, and I must admit that having got used to garbage collection in Python going back top C and C++ is a shock... And the large standard library (even if the design is awful in places) is an advantage.
Yup.
RubyCocoa anyway, so that'd be equivalent to using Objective-C).
Have you used Objective C itself? I like it a lot. It combines much of what I like about both C++ and Python.
Not yet. I tried learning it by myself last year, but the Cocoa framework, although extremely powerful, was a bit overwhelming to me (especially since I'd never done any real GUI programming).
I'll probably give it another shot sometime this year.
Also, Java has something which Python lacks (yet should have): private/protected/public class members. In Python, everything is public, which I consider to be a Bad Thing(TM).
Why do you think it should have it? Have you run into a lot of problems with inappropriate access in Python programs? This often comes up from ex Java/C++ programmers yet access control like this was not part of any of the earliest OOP languages and nobody ever discussed it much(SMalltalk took one extreme - all data private, and Lisp the other - all public) But I don't recall have any big issues with lack of control, and I don't find it an issue in Python. What exactly do you find to be such a problem with the lack in Python?
Well, the fact that everything is public means that if you want a certain form of encapsulation, you have to state in the docstrings what should be used as an "external interface" (stuff like "This is an internal method and may change/disappear in the next version! Don't use it!") and hope that people who use your classes listen to what you say.
I like the idea behind encapsulation, that you should be able to use a class as a "black box" with a known interface and not worry about the specifics. The way things are, Python gives you the possibility of shooting yourself in the foot; or to be more accurate they prevent you from preventing others from shooting themselves in the foot when they use your classes. (does what I say make any sense?)
A solution would be to do like in Ruby, where class/instance variables have names starting with (respectively) @@ or @. I guess you can do the same in Python (although it'd be __ and _, I suppose), but the language doesn't enforce it.
(I know, I know, if I want Ruby, I know where to find it :p )
Does runtime in Java include startup? Every time you start a java program, it has to load a BIG runtime in memory (roughly 30 megs of classes -- that's both Java's curse and blessing).
True of Python too of course, you have the initial interpretation/compile stage before execution starts.
Indeed; however in Python this extremely fast due to the interpreter being quite light compared to the behemoth that the JVM is (it can take up to 10 seconds starting up on my G4 867 12" Powerbook).
Also, I suppose that the Java bytecode produced by javac is a bit more optimized than the almost-instant bytecode compilation that happens when you start up Python on a program, isn't it? (I mean, it's slower to compile -- even with jikes -- , there's gotta be a reason behind this, ne?)
And of course, it's free (and written in Java).http://www.eclipse.org
So many editors, so many languages :-)
Hehe... So true. Eclipse is not an editor, though, it's an IDE (in the same meaning as Visual Studio and XCode). Quite a resource-consuming one at that, but a very efficient one. I wish Apple could make XCode 2 as good as Eclipse is.
Also, as I said, Eclipse can be extended with plugins, meaning it could theoretically become as good with Python as it is with Java. That'd be soooooo cool.
-- Max
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?"
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?"
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