Right - so it looks like we are saying the same things here: 1. Most programs on cable news channels offer opinion and analysis, of varying quality, and not objective newscasts. 2. The homophobic comments attributed to Reid from a decade ago were not uncommon among center-left Democrats at the time, but sound Trumpian today, especially to younger progressives.
My point is that the comments were not so much a problem for Reid because of factors related to #1 above, but because of #2. On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:04 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 4:44 PM PGage <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> I don’t disagree with what you say here for the most part. There are >> meaningful differences in credibility and substance of the news analysis >> offered by people like Hannity and Reid, on the one hand, and Maddow on the >> other, but even the best of these are not news providers, and I get my news >> from other sources. >> > > I believe the intent behind the opinions offered by FoxNews personalities > vastly differs from the intent behind the opinions of MSNBC personalities, > and I would find myself agreeing with MSNBC personalities much more than > FoxNews, but if you were to look at rundowns or outlines of their > respective shows, structurally they are nearly identical. And structurally, > they are not formatted as news-centered programs. If they were, there would > be room for debate, but there would be no disagreement about what > constitutes a fact. > > >> But that has nothing to do with Reid’s problems this week, or her >> performance this morning. The argument was not that the alleged homophobic >> statements were inappropriate for a journalist, rather that they were >> inappropriate for any on air personality, and more specifically, >> inappropriate for a Liberal ( or Progressive). Conservatives cared about >> this so they could make a hypocrisy critique. Reid was not fighting for her >> journalistic credentials, she was fighting for her Liberal credentials. >> > > That’s an intersecting take on the situation. I’ve seen data (I know > 538.com compiled numbers back when I could still stomach visiting the > site) that African Americans in general were slower to accept/recognize the > LGBT community than Americans from other racial backgrounds. When Reid’s > blog post scandal started gaining traction a few weeks ago (last month?), I > suppose that (rightly or wrongly) is partly what I attributed it to. It > still made her uncomfortable back then. > > I’ve done battle online with homophobes before (I still have a > Grammy-nominated stalker/troll who insists I was part of a global > conspiracy against her financed by a combination of “professional > homosexuals” and Google). Reid’s blog posts are inappropriate by today’s > standard, and I’d have found them rude ten years ago, but they lack the > venom of the homophobes I’ve encountered. She paints a picture of gays > being not normal, which I’m sure is hurtful to gays, but she falls short of > saying they were evil or should be kicked out or anything like that. Her > posts seem to be in keeping with the Drudge or Perez Hilton level of > “infotainment” gossip of that era. The “humor” (those are sarcastic air > quotes) she seems to be attempting to mine has more to do with the > hypocrisy of outspoken anti-gay celebrities and politicians who were > allegedly gay. > > Other posts make mention of her opposition to gay marriage and her > contention that most people find it gross to see two men kissing. This is > akin to showing old video of then First Lady Hillary Clinton saying the > same thing. The Democratic Party giving gay people mainstream recognition > (i.e. equating gay civil rights with the civil rights of ethnic minorities) > really only started as the Clintons were leaving the White House. I suspect > many if not most progressives in 2008 would not have blinked at what Reid > wrote, or thought twice about them. That’s not me defending or excusing > them, but gay equality is still a radical concept for many even now, a > decade after these blog posts were written. If Reid’s liberal credentials > are the issue based on her words a decade ago, then so are Mrs. Clinton’s. > > >> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 3:20 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I suspect the show was also a pantomime of journalism. Joy Reid was one >>> of the liberals I blocked on social media this year. I agreed with her more >>> than I disagreed with her, but she wasn’t contributing substance to news, >>> just her opinions. And her opinions contributed to the negativity on social >>> media and offered nothing constructive. >>> >>> Look, obviously every human being has his or her own opinions and >>> biases, but the problem is that we now live in an era where supposed >>> newscasts are slanted towards the opinions and biases of the hosts. It >>> isn’t “Here’s what’s happening today...” it is, “Here’s what I think about >>> what’s happening today...” It would be like a national newspaper only >>> printing an op-ed section. >>> >>> I’m not saying journalists can’t hold strong opinions, but journalists >>> today base their respective careers not on reporting the news, but on their >>> perspective on the news. People don’t watch Maddow or Hannity to be >>> informed; they watch to hear the host’s snarky take on the events of the >>> day. And personally I have no problem with that, but I have a problem with >>> calling that journalism or a newscast. And I have a problem with those >>> types of shows televised on what purports to be a news network. If FoxNews >>> was called FoxOpinion I would literally not care about what the hosts say >>> or believe. If MSNBC didn’t claim to report the news, then Rachel and Joy >>> could bloviate until the cows came home. But the news networks and their >>> journalist hosts make their programming about the hosts, and that just >>> opens them up to the sorts of scandals like this one about prior opinions >>> not fitting their current narrative. >>> >>> So we have Joy Reid having to apologize for opinions she never should >>> have made public if she was a true journalist. And we have Hannity exposed >>> as a client of Cohen having to backpeddle from his opinions about Cohen >>> that he never should have uttered if he was a true journalist. I know there >>> are people on this list who dislike when the claim is made that MSNBC and >>> FoxNews are two sides of the same coin, but in terms of the sort of content >>> they produce and the emphasis on opinion over fact, it is heads and tails. >>> >>> There is a way to cover breaking news in a nonpartisan way without it >>> being boring. There is a way to cover breaking news using experts and >>> firsthand witnesses as opposed to pundits and talking points spokespeople. >>> There is a way to debate ideas and opinions within the framework of >>> reporting the news. And there is a time and place for news anchors and >>> reporters to express their own opinions. But it takes more effort and more >>> money and requires a different skillset that those holding the jobs now do >>> not possess. >>> >>> Joy Reid should not be on MSNBC, not because she posted stupid opinions >>> on her blog a decade ago, and not because her opinions have changed now, >>> but because the focus of Joy Reid’s show is Joy Reid, and that should not >>> be the focus of any news broadcast on a news network. The fact we know >>> Reid’s opinions have evolved in ten years proves she is a decent human >>> being, but it also proves she is a piss-poor journalist. >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 2:41 PM PGage <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I watched her show this morning, and it made me uncomfortable. It was a >>>> pantomime of honesty. She said her expert could not prove she was hacked, >>>> but the truth is she initially claimed her expert had proven she was >>>> hacked, and other experts poked holes in that conclusion (she did not >>>> acknowledge or address this). She invited a bunch of LGBT advocates on the >>>> panel to challenge and grill her, but none did, and were clearly all chosen >>>> because they were on her side (it is not hard to find LGBT advocates who >>>> have not been on her side, so that was not random). Nobody even pushed a >>>> little bit on the wired “I can’t believe I wrote that “ position she landed >>>> on. >>>> >>>> even fucking Howie Kurtz, who we were just discussing recently, had the >>>> dood sense to have an independent host take over his show when the subject >>>> was his own poor handling of an LGBT related issue. Reid would have been >>>> much better served to get someone from the community who writes for The >>>> Daily Beast (where Reid writes too, and which has been pretty suspicious of >>>> her story) and get a medium- well scorching. The pity is it would have >>>> been relatively easy for her to just say something like: >>>> >>>> “I don’t remember writing these horrible things, but I can’t say I >>>> didn’t, and that’s the problem. Whether I wrote them or not they are >>>> consistent with the my beliefs and attitudes at the time. A decade ago I >>>> was a liberal artist who grew up in a conservative African -American church >>>> and family, and I was homophobic. I have changed a lot in those ten years, >>>> and have seen that my vies about LGBT people then were as reprehensible as >>>> those of the worst racists towards Black people. I was too slow to learn, >>>> and I continue to need to learn more, but I am committed to doing whatever >>>> I can every day for the rest of my life to fight for justice for all.” >>>> >>>> If she said something like that the issue melts away for all but the >>>> Fox News crowd. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.thedailybeast.com/joy-reid-apologizes-for-homophobic-posts-she-doesnt-remember-writing?ref=scroll >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 9:31 AM Steve Timko <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> MSNBC's Joy Reid apologizes for 'hurtful' comments >>>>> >>>>> By MARK KENNEDY >>>>> AP Entertainment Writer >>>>> NEW YORK (AP) - MSNBC's Joy Reid, under fire for homophobic language >>>>> in old blog posts, has apologized for any past comments that belittled or >>>>> mocked the LGBTQ community and says she hasn't been able to verify her >>>>> claim that her account was hacked. >>>>> Reid opened her weekend show "AM Joy" on Saturday by acknowledging has >>>>> said "dumb" and "hurtful" things in the past. "The person I am now is not >>>>> the person I was then," she said. >>>>> She's unable to explain blog posts from a decade ago that mocked gay >>>>> people and individuals who were allegedly gay. >>>>> Reid has denied posting them altogether but says a security expert who >>>>> looked into whether she had been a hacking victim found no proof. She says >>>>> he "had no idea where they came from." >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 7:25 PM, Steve Timko <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joy Reid said she was hacked. Outrage from the LGBT community. >>>>>> LINK >>>>>> <https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/25/joy-reid-anti-gay-posts-550213> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > Kevin M. (RPCV) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TVorNotTV" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
