Hi All, I think this thread has gotten way off topic. Can somebody in charge flag this thread as a "dead horse" [1] ?
I think there is some good discussion going on, but those discussions should be taken to new, fresh threads. I do think that in order to post to lists intended for developers to read you should follow some of the guidelines in articles such as [2], do some research and show that you can at least think clearly. (I think I should have followed these rules better before posting... I don't even know if the question was really answered anyway, other than pointing at the guidelines, which I did read before posting at least.) I don't really think this thread should continue as it is. Let the developers and moderators get back to real work. Thanks, Todd [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse [2] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Dec 6, 2007 4:05 PM, Kevin Fries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This was sent to me personally, and it has comments directed to others > in the group... Therefore, I assume it was meant for the group at large. > > Kevin Fries > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Richard A. Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince > crash) > Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:54:45 -0600 > > On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: > [...] > | If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from > | elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in > | ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to > | understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a > | Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. > | > | Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely > | your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what > | needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of > | features that need to be implemented. > > I couldn't agree with you more! > > | Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. > > Actually, this wouldn't be Rule #1, but it is pretty much the Golden Rule of > Business. Mark Cuban said it best a few years back, "Treat your customers > like they own you, because they do." The hard part with this though in our > little neck of the woods is that all of us are also customers, so it can get > confusing. > > | If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority > | list, your competition will. > > And they are (ie. PCLinuxOS, Fedora). > > | Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real > | business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the > | customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into > | something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours > | providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its > | not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. > > It was all fine and dandy until this paragraph. This is the one thing that > really could irk a volunteer to such a project. I have been around this > community for a couple of years now and talking to some past developers and > contributors, the one thing that was common was that "we are working for free > while they are making money from our work." I look at it like this..Kubuntu > is giving me more than I could ever give it. How? > > 1) I have a totally free operating system > 2) I don't have to worry about all the other things I would have to with that > other OS > 3) The development community allows me to participate in which I get to learn > the ins-and-outs of what really goes on (after a while, this is a nice CV > bullet point) > 4) The friends I have made in the process are totally worth every minute I > have put in. > > | Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the > | door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as > | the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer > | so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have > | over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do > | what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or > | Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). > > I am 50/50 on this paragraph. I wholeheartedly believe there should be > the "checking the ego at the door," however a little bit of ego never hurt > anybody. For instance, look at Microsoft. They have the biggest ego of all, > and they have yet to really fail at what they do. Going on with Microsoft, > they do indeed listen to their customers, just because we don't see it simply > because we are not their customers, doesn't mean they don't. If they didn't > listen, would they really be as big as they are? I mean Apple and other > operating systems have been around just as long. Imagine if the Linux > community would have really listened to the complaints in the 90s, I think we > would then be further than we are today. In our eyes, yes we do have a true > advantage over Microsoft, but to the billions of Microsoft users out there, > they laugh at that advantage. > > | You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you > | place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you > | really helping? > > Very true, but one thing I have noticed from doing so is this: > > 1) Linux isn't gaining the ground with proprietary vendors. Why? because most > distros have listened totally to the customer and have provided them with the > proprietary solutions. This isn't helping in my opinion. And the one thing > that really sucks with these proprietary solutions, we can't help/support the > users when problems occur. The only thing we can do is say "oh well, that is > what you get when using proprietary stuff, we can't help you, ask <insert > proprietary mfr here>. > > The great thing about Linux is its scalability. It can pretty much be adapted > to most environments. Providing proprietary solutions to the end user isn't > doing anything for the cause, and is actually making us look like another > Microsoft. We are starting to provide some of the same proprietary solutions > (mainly drivers and codecs) to make the customer happy, and by doing this the > majority of distro developers aren't aiming their efforts in helping the > advancement of free solutions. > > I can go on about this forever. You are right when you say the customer is #1, > and this is of course, like I said, the golden rule of business, a money > making business. The tide is different when a great majority of your workers > are providing their time, knowledge, and everything else for absolutely free > (there are the exceptions of course, people like me who enjoy the freeness I > have by using a free operating system). A month or so back Scott and I had a > similar conversation in IRC and I was upset about it, but after sitting back > and thinking about it, I can see his point and understand it. We all have our > egos and that's what makes all of us unique. We are all customers of our own > creations, so making us happy should also be an important rule. If we aren't > happy, then nobody will be happy. So unlike a typical business, their has to > be some give-and-take with the free software community, at least a happy > medium. So far it has worked for Ubuntu as well as many other distrobutions. > > Scott, I do have a problem with the document you linked to about asking smart > questions. Most of the answers I have seen in there are stupid answers or > stupid solutions. I was always raised with the idea that there isn't a such > thing as a stupid question, and I believe that. Just because most of us know > to Google this or that, or know how to find solutions, that doesn't mean that > every Tom, Dick, and Harry does. I have a professor who has multiple degrees > (Bachelors (couple of them), Masters (up there with those too), and PhDs), > yet he asks his students for help researching information online because he > isn't as savvy as some of the students, that doesn't make any of his > questions stupid. I say burn that smart questions document, as it is > obviously from the 90s with the "STFW" and "RTFM" type assessments. Its a > miracle that the community has survived through all of that stuff and not > driven more people away. > > OK, </end here> :) > > -- > Kevin Fries > Senior Linux Engineer > Computer and Communications Technology, Inc > A Division of Japan Communications Inc. > > -- > > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
