I feel terribly sorry for not being able to watch the video any sooner. Any way, *talking as the the Artwork Team*, I'm glad to see what the users think about the visuals (and that makes us rethink all our previous philosophy about what the Ubuntu GNOME desktop experience really means) I think we will totally deliver; this cycle will ship the new logo, (probably) the new website, new wallpapers, etc. And *we have big plans for 16.04 LTS* (but that totally belongs to another e-mail and to the future, mostly).
Thanks for your constant work, Ali. Cheers. On 26 July 2015 at 15:11, Patrik Bubák <bub...@privacyrequired.com> wrote: > I must say also that the atmosphere here, although there are not many > posters, is a lot better (more of a hobby project) than Kubuntu. I am > not on the Kubuntu users list but have been for some time on the > Kubuntu dev list. I was banned from Kubuntu forums for being too > argumentative and not putting up with the sense of superiority that > the "idiots" (who know everything) like to portray in a sense of not > wanting to hear anything negative about their product or Linux in > general. > > It is very hard in this world (the open source, or Linux world) to > offer some feedback that is along the lines of "you know, maybe you > should think about this a little more." People like to portray that > they are so awesome, when in effect.... > > Very true. I too am glad we can consider ourselves a community where > anyone can freely express themselves and not be bashed for it, which is > sadly the case in many discussion boards and that is the very plague of > the Linux community - zealots and ignorants. > > > On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 19:46 +0200, Xen wrote: > > Hi, > > Without wanting to take away from the current efforts and progress, I > had still wanted to point out that, (when I was writing this email a > week ago), ... > > As a casual observer (such as I am) the questions of the questionaire > as you put it were or are very much directed in a certain fashion and > may or would not represent the full spectrum of opinions a user or > users may have. > > In that sense it might construe the direction, or a direction, of the > project, in a way that is /congruent/ with what is /expected/ of what > users find important, rather than what the full spectrum of their > thought would be. > > What I mean is that the questions pertained only to Ubuntu Gnome's > small part in delivering this product, as compared to the entire > product that is delivered. A casual user will by default not care or > know about the mechanics of the open source world in the sense that > he/she will be able to make the distinction between "Ubuntu Gnome's > part" and the full fledged Gnome operating system as it is presented > to him/her. > > Do you see what I mean? > > To a Linux enthusiast: Gnome is one product, Ubuntu Gnome is a > distribution or a packaging. > > To a casual human being who is in it for the good times: Ubuntu Gnome > is a thing that works in a certain way that would be described by the > word "Gnome", ie. the desktop manager or environment exemplify > exemplifies the entire product for him/her. > > That's what the user sees. That's what the user experiences. He/she > experiences GNOME. But since Ubuntu Gnome is not responsible for > GNOME, that creates a bit (and not a small bit) of confusion and a > schism and chasm in understanding and a very weird way of relaying > responsibility elsewhere that is just incomprehensible to a user. > > Most people in Linux do not see this schism and this chasm. They > consider it natural because they have been told at some point that it > is. But a regular user is not interested in "the number of > contributors" or "the artwork" per se. He/she wants the entire > experience to be good or to work, which would mean he/she would have > remarks about the Gnome product mostly, because the distinction > between Gnome and Ubuntu Gnome can not be had for someone who is not > well versed in such things. > > (A bit the same that a regular Windows user does not really know the > distinction between "Explorer" and "Internet Explorer" which are two > different things). > > So a regular user coming to that poll will think "huh?" "these are not > the things I was concerned about". "Oh, it is a community thing. Hmm..." > > And so he/she does the best to answer according to that poll. But a > regular user is not even on this mailing list and so would not take > this survey. So the image is coloured already by vast amounts of > experience (and forgetting) most people on this list have. > > Nevertheless, Ali/Amjjawad. > > > I am deeply grateful for the way you are tackling this and leading or > trying to be a leader in Ubuntu Gnome. You lead and enthuse with > compassion, strength, and above all, emotion. You care, and you don't > care to show either. You say what's on your heart and a lot of Linux > people can learn (or remember) from that. > > So thank you for being here and being an inspiration to me at least. > > I am not even using Gnome, I haven't had a computer for months, now I > have a laptop again and it runs... bababa Windows 7 Professional. And > I want to put Kubuntu 15.10 and OpenSuSE 13.2 on it, just for kicks, I > am getting pretty comfy in Windows. Never been that comfy in Linux, as > far as I'm concerned. > > Anyway. > > I must say also that the atmosphere here, although there are not many > posters, is a lot better (more of a hobby project) than Kubuntu. I am > not on the Kubuntu users list but have been for some time on the > Kubuntu dev list. I was banned from Kubuntu forums for being too > argumentative and not putting up with the sense of superiority that > the "idiots" (who know everything) like to portray in a sense of not > wanting to hear anything negative about their product or Linux in > general. > > It is very hard in this world (the open source, or Linux world) to > offer some feedback that is along the lines of "you know, maybe you > should think about this a little more." People like to portray that > they are so awesome, when in effect.... > > For example, and I think this goes the same for Ubuntu Gnome. There is > no Kubuntu documentation whatsoever really. You are directed to Ubuntu > documentation, but Ubuntu documentation is equally badly written and > with a political objective. > > Kubuntu is just a small team who do all the work. Yet they don't > really invite community to cooperate. They wan't contributors, but not > community. By contrast, when I was with OpenSUSE years ago there was a > wiki and it was fun to edit it, and I could have my own page without > any issue, and so on. I have not even seen that type of community > presence with Kubuntu. > > Of course, if I would espouse my own views on that Kubuntu wiki, it > would not be welcome. You have to fall in line with the image as if > you are an employee "contributing" to the product, which means you > choose to uphold the Ubuntu and Kubuntu code of conduct, which means > you cannot disagree, etc. etc. There is also not really any Ubuntu community > since it is also a "driven" project. > > By contrast the OpenSUSE website has vast documentation, the > contributors on the forums (at least the Dutch people) are a bit of > the same arrogant bastards, but my experience with OpenSUSE is that it > is much more ...thorough or decent or dependable in the sense that > there are just many more people contributing (voluntarily, without > being pushed) which means that not everyone is /rushing all the time/ > and people actually have time to write something good. > > My impression also with Ubuntu Gnome, as you have told, is that it is > a few people pulling the cart and even those people are overexerting > themselves. > > No time, no time, no time. > > Part of the problem lies in the attitude towards the goals. And that > depends on whether they feel responsible for the entire user > experience. Whether they can feel comfortable about delivering an > entire product. Or whether the product is haphazard like the efforts > and the documentation and so on. > > The Kubuntu people ushered me out because they had too many concerns > about coming across as "awesome" while not really being it. They keep > repeating that line, how awesome they all are, like some sort of > propaganda machine. (I once didn't come out of the house nor watch TV > or anything for 3 months. I was flabbergasted by the amount of Dutch > propaganda on Dutch TV, proclaiming how great we all are..... yeah > right). If you have to say how awesome you are (to each other) then > you are not it. > > But any of those thoughts were not welcome on those Kubuntu forums, > sorry to say. > > I don't know why Ubuntu is such a difficult beast. There are so many > smaller Ubuntu derivatives but they can live because of all the money > behind Ubuntu. I don't have a sense of community here or there (more > here than there) but the troublesome thing is.... > > Like the other poster said. > > You try to get in, but there is no one to welcome you (except you, perhaps). > > And you try to be a contributor, but there is no where you can easily > contribute. The bars are too high. > > At Kubuntu they ask for people helping them with code integration or > github integration or migrations or package updates or whatever, which > is like *really specialist work*. Git itself is a thoroughly difficult > beast especially if you don't have to fuck up which is a pertinent > problem in Git from what I have seen :P. Being allowed to fuck up > makes life a lot easier :P. > > So how can you contribute? You go to the forums, where you are ushered > out or told you can't have a say in anything unless you get your hands > dirty, for which there are scarcely any opportunities. > > Doing package work with Git is really a nightmare. Sorry to say. > Devised and designed by Linus. Says enough ;-). > > And then you go to Windows and there is a reasonably nice GUI for Git > from Github that doesn't even exist in Linux ;-). > > Anyway. > > Having a dependable, nice, easy-to-contribute-to-wiki is really the > hallmark of a good open source system and I've found it lacking in the > Ubuntu ecosphere. Just go to the Ubuntu wiki. There is almost nothing > there!! The wiki has links that lead OUT of the wiki and there is no > information on the wiki whatsoever that I can find. I mean, what the > ...fuck? There is no (technical) information anywhere but there is the > ubiquitoes "Get Involved" link. > > But you can't get involved because there is no wiki to get involved on. > > Really. The utmost basics and they are not right, and when you tell > people they don't want to hear. Any case. > > > > Ali, I am glad we have you at the rudder. Even if it is just some > person, one person, expressing himself, his love and his gripes, that > is enough. > > Regards, > > And pardon my language. > > > Bart. > > > > > > Nevertheless I am deeply grateful for the way you are tackling this > Ali/Amjjawad. > > Quoting Ali/amjjawad <amjja...@gnome.org>: > > Hi everyone,>> Please check:> > > https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time-results/>> Thank you!>>> --> > > Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> Best Regards,> > > Ali/amjjawad <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> *http://kibo.computer > > <http://kibo.computer>* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu> GNOME > > <http://ubuntugnome.org/>> > > > > > > -- > Sent using Evolution <https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution/> from Ubuntu > <http://ubuntu.com/desktop> > > Nothing ruins creativity like too many voices weighing in. We call it the *Ice > Cream Principle*. Tell 10 people to go get ice cream with one condition: > they all have to agree on one flavour. That flavour is going to be > chocolate or vanilla every time. Groups of people don't agree on what's > cool or interesting, they agree on what's easy to agree on. > > -- > Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list > Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome > >
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