this is becoming a labyrinth ! You are just going round in circles. You asked me to come up with other words and I pointed out to you that I already had. But then you claim not to be criticizing my lexical aptitude ! Well !!! After that you repeat what I said about the right of my ethnic group to self-determination. Nothing new.
You are lumbering around the periphery instead of addressing the core issue, and that is the fact that you grouped people together on an ethnic basis and assumed that they all have the same opinions. THAT is the issue.
Kasangwawo
From: Owor Kipenji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ugnet_: They’re corrupt because they’re poor; dictators because they’re not democrats
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0100 (BST)
Kasangwawo,it is not in my purview to indulge in this proxy intellectualism,that your sophistry is teteering to.Mine was not
to crique your lexical aptitude but to bring to your attention that
baloney is so prosaic that you should have long retired it.
Like I stated,no human being(except for your Hero murderer and
accomplished fraudstar/thief-Mu7) can and should deny the other
their god given rights to self determination,be that at family,clan,
tribe or any other level.Thus my assertion that we are all innately
tribalist,except that we should not make our love for achieving our
tribal centered objectives become a nauseant to others.So I do not
see why you should imagine that I was in anyway preventing you
and all those of like minds like you from doing what they wish to do.
At the end of the day,however we must all take cognisance of the
fact that we are invariably our brothers' keeper.Thus our actions
however mundane should not trample on our brothers' toes.
Thank you.
Kipenji.
======================================================
jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kipenji,
it seems strange that instead of addressing the content you decided to concentrate on one word I used for half of the posting. But even on that account you were wrong. I also used: filth, crap, nonsensical, to describe what you were saying.
All I was saying was that although you succumbed to the temptation to put us
in one group because we are Baganda (yes, you included my name that's why I
responded) , we all have our own opinions about different things. This in no
way negates my stand on the right of my ethnic group to self-determine. I
don't know where I've taken a nationalistic posture, maybe you can
concretely point it out to me.
Kasangwawo
>From: Owor Kipenji
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: ugnet_: They’re corrupt because they’re poor; dictators
>because they’re not democrats
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:28:50 +0100 (BST)
>
>Baloney is apparently your new treasure word.Could you please
>come up with others before you become more baloney yourself.
>You have no jurisdiction whatsoever to dismiss my assertion by
>merely reverting to your latest catch baloney,which for all intents
>and purposes is so primordial to say the least,but you need the
>intellectual wherewithal to provide the facts to the contrary.
>Everyone and everybody is innately a tribalist,it is however the
>extent to which they play out the tribal card that becomes a nauseant
>to others.
>Even the holy writ attests to that ,so stop this quasi nationalistic
>posture
>that you appear to have recently acquired so as to whitewash who you
>actually are.Secondly if that did not apply to you,you would not have
>predilected to mention it.
>Thank you.
>Wish you a tribalist full weekend.
>Akuume.
>Kipenji.
>======================================================
>
>jonah kasangwawo wrote:
>Kipenji,
>
>this is tribalist filth ! For you to group people together on the basis of
>their ethnic origin and attempt to convince netters that we all think the
>same, is nonsensical to say the least. You have been on this list for some
>time and should have been aware of the different views we have on the NRM,
>the politics in Uganda in general, etc. I therefore dismiss your
>allegations below with the contempt they deserve. Satire, my a....
>
>My permanent disagreement with Mulindwa is not about whether Mu7 is good or
>not. It is about his blaming everything that has gone wrong in Uganda on
>Baganda (plus of course his opinion that Obote is an angel). In fact his
>standpoint is very tribalistic. As for the nubian thing, I was not the
>source of that information, it came straight from Toronto where Mulindwa
>resides.
>
>The Bukenya issue is a non-starter. The only opinions I've seen from
>Baganda
>on this issue were all critical and your attempt to present this as if we
>all agree with him is just crap. Your pal Mulindwa even forwarded to this
>forum one such contribution from FedsNet (although this was done with his
>own motives). You should therefore stop patronizing us by thinking that you
>UPC people are the only ones who know what is going on in Uganda or the
>only
>ones who are capable of analysing the situation.
>
>All in all, this was a lot of baloney. I just want to caution you to stop
>talking about things you don't know. 'Obuganda' involves a lot of
>behavioural norms which you, as a non-Muganda, won't be aware of.
>If I were you I wouldn't just throw around terms whose meaning I'm not
>really acquainted with.
>
>Kasangwawo
>
> >From: Owor Kipenji
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: ugnet_: They’re corrupt because they’re poor; dictators
> >because they’re not democrats
> >Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:16:54 +0100 (BST)
> >
> >Mitayo,I am beginning to doubt your being what you say you are because,to
> >the Musaazis,the Kirondes ,the Lutimbas and their cohorts,
> >Mu7 was,has been ,is and will forever be the best thing that Ugandans
> >ever since the late Sir Frederick Edward Mukabya Mutesa II(RIP) had
> >in the entire decades it has existed.
> >Now you are appearing to talk like Mulindwa the nubian alias acholi alias
> >biological substance talks especially regarding Buganda whose citizens
> >have been having sound sleep ever since the Prince of Peace,none other
> >than the celebrated and certified thief and mass murderer Mu7,ushered
> >"peace" through killing countless number of people opposed to him,in
> >Uganda.
> >Mitayo,wa Nywedde Kyi?.How come you have all these 18 years not been
> >seeing Mu7 as a saviour for Uganda and Buganda in particular?Are you,a
>UPC
> >sell out?.It is only disgruntled UPCs like those biological substances
>from
> >the North and Eastern Uganda who keep villifying Mu7
> >because they are defeated forces who are yearning for "lost"glory,the
>very
> >glory that Buganda has had since time immemorial!.The wonders that Mu7
>has
> >brought to Uganda has to be recited and regurgitated all the time and in
> >all places,in the valleys,over the Mountains,in the high seas and on land
> >so that even those hard in hearing can hear.
> >Brother Mitayo,I pray that you reconsider your stated stand about Mu7
> >and his very illustrous achievements for Uganda and Buganda in
> >particular.Have you just forgotten that he has made Professor Gilbert
> >Bukenya,a Vice President so that Bukenya can "cook" Federalism for
> >Buganda?.That is why we have only to praise Mu7 and villify all what all
> >others before him did,for those others did not do so much for (B)Uganda.
> >Brother Mitayo,I hope you will make amends with Brothers Musaazi,
> >Kironde,Lutimba Matovu,Kasangwawo and others before you are bannished
>from
> >the "Obuganda".
> >People like Minnini Kahangane Mulera belong in their own class of
> >opportunists.When homeboy,Kiiza Besigye was contesting for the big
> >chair,the principle was"Empiisi 'yo waanyu"Akurya Nga----.So that was
> >the big about turn for the good Dr.Many of us were not surprised because
> >with what has happened in Uganda,even when I meet a dog that talks to
>me,or
> >better still some swine that wants to engage me in a conversation,
> >I will not be surprised because under the sun in Uganda everything and
> >anything is possible.
> >Brother Mitayo,I do not want to harrass you more than this but beg to
>stop
> >here and wish you a wonderful and thoughtful night over this
>unprecedented
> >position that you appear to take against the flow of the wind.
> >Thank you.
> >Akuume.
> >Kipenji.
> >==================================================================
> >
> >
> >Mitayo Potosi wrote:
> >
> >I had always taken Bro Charles Onyango-Obbo to be a dyed in the wool
> >apologist for our two tin-pot criminal dictators, Kagame and m7.
> >
> >He seems to have got fed up somewhere along the way. Wellcome aboard dear
> >friend.
> >
> >For the first time he is even mentioning the likes of Robert Mangaliso
> >Sobukwe; dirty words in the crowd of the West's darlings like N. Mandela
>of
> >the new breed of African 'leaders'.
> >
> >Have you ever heard the ANC and Mandela acknoweldge the presence of
>others
> >on Robben Island? Sobukwe? Never.
> >
> >In Canada, we have the case of Dr Muniini-Mulera. For over 10 years he
>had
> >a mu7 fawning gang that you crossed only at your peril. They even had a
> >local weekly to drum into our thick heads the vitures of 'fundamental
> >change'.
> >
> >But below the surface it was clear the base was 'we Southerners vs they'.
> >You became a curiosity if you refused to fit. 'Hey you are from the South
> >aren't you?', was a constant.
> >
> >I don't know why Dr Muniini-Mulera changed, or even whether he really
> >changed. mu7 has not become any worse than he ever was.
> >
> >Now you hear that 'Baganda' have been indifferent to the suffering in the
> >North.
> >
> >When Hon Nuwa Amanya Mushega was still Min of Ed, he told a crowd in
> >Toronto
> >that NRM was rebuilding the country, which had been ruined by Baganda. I
> >cried out. It was fellow Baganda who said I was putting them to shame
> >for my vehment disgust. The only sympathy I got was from a lady from West
> >Nile!!
> >
> >Hopefully after 17 years fellow Ugandans have seen the real mu7. But that
> >is
> >an awfully long time. Imagine the cost. The blood of all those fellow
> >Africans. Men women and children!!
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >Ear to The Ground By Charles Onyango-Obbo
> >
> >They’re corrupt because they’re poor; dictators because they’re not
> >democrats
> >Oct 15, 2003
> >
> >We continue to desperately look for the answers. Why is corruption so
>high,
> >especially among key politicians and cronies of the rulers in Uganda?
> >
> >And why is our country that had a “revolution” in 1986 and saw dramatic
> >improvements in life and the economy up until about 1998, sliding back
>into
> >oppressive government?
> >
> >Why is the independent Uganda press under the boot again? In short, why
>has
> >the attempt at democracy in Uganda failed?
> >
> >The search for insights first took me to a dear friend, who offered an
> >explanation that came to him after he finished reading an autobiography
>by
> >Zubeida Jaffer (an anti-apartheid South African journalist) and an
> >encounter
> >with Elinor Sisulu. Elinor has just won the Noma award for her biography
>of
> >Walter and Albertina Sisulu, her parents in-law.
> >
> >His impression is that in contrast to these people, most of the leaders
>who
> >are shaping the political destiny of Uganda today are just
> >“pseudo-revolutionaries”.
> >
> >Or better still, “fakes”. He writes that; “the high ideals, deep
>morality,
> >humility and simplicity that defines these amazing people who paid such a
> >high price for freedom, is in very sharp contrast to your President
>Yoweri
> >Museveni’s ways of doing things.”
> >
> >My friend is a scholar of African affairs, and visited Uganda when the
> >African National Congress forces were based in Luwero during the last
>years
> >of apartheid. He says he fears that;
> >
> >“In Uganda, Museveni [and elements in the military and Movement faction
> >that
> >are close to him] has personally appropriated everything good and noble
>in
> >Uganda’s post-colonial history.
> >
> >“Museveni has dominated political space and continues to shape and define
> >political discourse. The result is that political culture is a mirror
>image
> >of himself and his faction - it is imperial, violent, and nearly
> >‘decadent’”.
> >
> >Corruption in Uganda has the same root causes with greedy government in
> >most
> >of Africa, where he observes: “there is an obsession with becoming
>wealthy
> >and living in excessive (but tasteless) comfort, something that comes
>with
> >a
> >late escape from poverty! The debates have become more and more shallow,
> >parochial, cynical (what hard-line Movementists call pragmatic) and
> >retrogressive.”
> >
> >The point here being that the parents of most of Uganda’s leaders (and us
> >their “subjects”) and top bureaucrats were either poor, or if they were
> >rich
> >were only the first generation to live in wealth.
> >
> >This late escape from poverty inclines us to rob taxpayers. (If you think
> >of
> >it, apart from the Kulubyas, there are possibly no more than three
>Ugandan
> >families that have had money consistently for two generations i.e. 70
> >years).
> >
> >Yet, while this gives us a good view of the underbelly of the corruption
> >beast, it leaves unanswered the question why democracy hasn’t resulted in
> >more freedom and enlightened governance in the end.
> >
> >Instead, it is degenerating in less freedom. To this, I found an answer
> >from
> >a diplomat who told me he’s struck by how Latin American countries have
> >not,
> >as has happened in several parts of Africa, slid back into dictatorship
> >even
> >in the midst of the region’s economic crisis.
> >
> >He has developed his theory of “dictatorship by democracy”. This, he told
> >me, is the situation where the government uses democratic forms to carry
> >out
> >anti-democratic actions. Thus the press is free in practice, but the
> >repressive media laws remain in the statute books and, more importantly,
> >the
> >government ignores what it reports.
> >
> >A government appoints a human rights commission, and passes laws that
>offer
> >more liberties, but in practice it acts in violation of these same
>rights.
> >When it’s put to task by Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, it
> >points to the free press, and human rights laws as evidence that the
> >accusations of it being a dictatorship are unfounded.
> >
> >Political parties might have rights under the constitution, but there
>isn’t
> >an enabling law allowing them to be freely active, and the Police
>routinely
> >deny them permission to assemble. And, of course, the Military Police is
> >sent in to disperse their rallies.
> >
> >An anti-corruption body like the Inspectorate of Government is set up,
>but
> >corruption continues and it can only investigate those who are not well
> >connected or politicians who have fallen out of favour.
> >
> >When the big people are caught stealing, they say; “how can you say we
>are
> >thieves and condone corruption when we are the people who set up the
>IGG?”
> >Sound familiar?
> >
> >Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >© 2003 The Monitor Publications
> >
> >Mitayo Potosi
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> >
> >
> >
> >--------------------------------------------
> >This service is hosted on the Infocom network
> >http://www.infocom.co.ug
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
> >Yahoo!Messenger
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------
>This service is hosted on the Infocom network
>http://www.infocom.co.ug
>
>---------------------------------
>Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
>Yahoo!Messenger
_________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
-------------------------------------------- This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
---------------------------------
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
-------------------------------------------- This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
