SOME DEBATER YOU ARE!!! Is this supposed to be the answer to what I suggested? What is the centrality? Substance, my mate, get some!
I thought you were for objective debate. It not unusual with authoritarian feudalism on the net, especially for freshers. Read me again with contained emotion and you will see that mine was not Buganda vs North or what ever but based on prevalent legitmacy and constitutional interpretations. Do not be too jumpy and impulsive. That is for immature types.
I wanted to understand the basis of your arguments. Now you just jump on defensive as if I was opposing you. Be objective and substancetive.
Otherwise, no hard feeling just congenial debates.
We live in different worlds and do not even laugh at the same jokes. So lets hold to context!
You have not answered me.
rgds
noc'l
>From: Rehema Mukooza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Ugandacom] Re: Federalism - Can the North survive without the South?? / Adam Dada
>Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:33:22 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>NOCīLADUMAS GEORGES <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>YOU HAVE NO COMMAND, YET, OF THE ISSUE YOU ARE TRYING TO ADVANCE, unfortunately!!!
>
>Do you have command of the issue you are trying to advance?? Thanks to Allah that you have no such command.
>
>
>
>Check out the ROYAL HISTORY and check out about Kakungulu.
>
>Check ou the NORTHERN HISTORY with the attrocities they committed on people and check out about Obote, Amin, and Okello.
>
>
>
>Check out the contents of your definition of Uganda.
>
>Check out the contents of your definition of Uganda. Bugand is IN Uganda, the two can not be separated.
>
>
>
>Check out your definition of CULTURE.
>
>Check out your definition of CULTURE. Buganda does have a culture.
>
>
>
>Check out the contents of your definitions of Political rights and human rights.
>
>Check out the contents of your definitions of Political rights and human rights. What are they, may I ask??
>
>
>
>Check out what you got within the parameters of your understanding of economical, cultural and social rights.
>
>Check out what you got within the parameters of your understanding of economical, cultural and social rights. Buganda has a right to all those.
>
>
>
>Check out if in any way there are discriminative factors in your arguments.
>
>Check out if in any way there are discriminative factors in your arguments against Buganda.
>
>
>
>And do a little homework to find out the contents of normative definition of discrimination and what UN conventions or declarations cover it.
>
>Do a little homework to find out the contents of normative definition of discrimination (against ethnic tribes i.e Baganda) and what UN conventions or declarations cover it.
>
>
>
>After that come back to net and parade your points to support that you are not talking low-key subjective bullshit!!!
>
>After that come back to net and parade your points to support that you are not talking low-key subjective bullshit!!! The development of the Northern region might be bullshit to you, but it's not for Uganda. That's what we all want to see. The North needs to learn about hospitality of other tribes, for there isn't many "foreigners" in the North. Why?? Is this low-key subjective bullshit to you?? Maybe, we all know of your sectarianism.
>
>
>
>Some times it helps to be factor based.
>
>Some times it helps to be factor based. Prove anything I've mentioned in the email below wrong. Northerners are not developing and investing in the North. They need to learn a lot from Baganda concerning the development of their areas and outright balance of civilization to all parts of Uganda. These are facts which are factor based. Otherwise, Prove me wrong!
>
>
>
>
>
>Zakoomu M.
>
>
>
>================================================================================================
>
>
>
>
> >From: Rehema Mukooza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: [Ugandacom] Federalism - Can the North survive without the South?? / Adam Dada
> >Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:23:11 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Dada:
> >
> >Well spoken! And when the Baganda try to address this issue of Northerners burrying/forgiving differences amongest themselves and abondoning a reconciliation with Baganda, some Northerners have termed us as "tribalists". I am talking about this recent incident when they refused to apologize to Luweero people but decided to apologize to each other (Acholi, Lango, Teso). Uganda missed a serious chance for a reconciliation between the North and Buganda. People had cooled down and they were ready and open to forgiveness. What a chance Ugandans wasted??
> >
> >If these people only knew the Baganda half way, I think they have forgotten, and hence they need to understand them all the way. It is like you've said Mr. Adam Dada, Baganda are very welcoming people. I am telling you that one will never find a region in Uganda with the exception of Buganda where almost all tribes of Uganda are found to settle peacefully. Humans can not settle in harsh environments.
> >
> >I have just read an article about the Bakenyi (a section of Baganda?) who are being discriminated in Teso solely because they are of Bantu origin. The Iteso call them "emerit" or something similar to that, a clear sign of intolerance of various tribes of Uganda. The Bakenyi in Teso are forced to be at the end of the waiting-list to see a doctor! This is not the only example, there are lots of them. Due to such unkindness in Teso, I am sure you will find few Baganda living in Teso. And yet its the reverse in Buganda, where you will find hundreds of Iteso living in Buganda.
> >
> >Teso is in the Eastern part of Uganda. It is just the tip of the iceberg of that characterizes what's in Northern Uganda. Buganda is not just looking on when all this is happening. We know what is going, we can see through all of this. However, we want the country to move in the right direction of democracy and federalism, with justice for all.
> >
> >Adam Dada, have you ever wondered why Buganda has had the success it has had through thick and thin?? You will see that Buganda has a civilization of organized governance. If sensible Ugandans can allow for the North to learn from Buganda and get itself organized regionally to tackle local matters (Federalism), I am very sure that the North can achieve the same. If Northerners with money quit spending their money in Buganda and take it to their roots (home) to develop their home region, I am very sure the North will achieve development.
> >
> >Dada, it is sad for me to see that a HUGE majority of Northern MPs own houses and businesses in Buganda, and yet they own nothing in their home regions (the regions they are supposed to represent in parliament). These MPs are clear examples that they are not working towards the development of the regions they are representing. How can an MP from the North represent that region when he/she lives in Buganda?? How shamefull can things become in order for sense to come back to our brothers and sisters?? We had Obote who had mansions in Buganda and he had nothing in Lango!! How much shame do people have to take?? What is becoming of people?? Have people forgotten that charity begins at home??
> >
> >I do know of some Northerners here in USA who send money back home to build houses in Buganda. On one hand I don't blame them because of the war, on the other hand I do blame them because this pattern began sometime back in history before Museveni came to power (before his bloody war in the North). How is the North going to develop when its own leaders are not in support of local Northern development?? If you have ever noticed, you will see that when Baganda get some money, they invest in their motherland. This leads to local Buganda development and investment in the region.
> >
> >Whenever Baganda talk about that very same issue of being puzzled why Northerners do not want to invest and develop their own regions, some Northerners then turn to branding Baganda as "You don't want non-Baganda in Buganda, you hate them". Some Northerners feed off that lie and it comforts them throughout their episodes of living in a fantasy land. What some of these Northerners could learn is that Baganda do not want them out of Buganda, but rather trying to give them advise concerning how to develop their mother regions. Some Northerners get too sensitive to a point of senselessness when sense is being presented to them by Baganda. I think you have seen many of them with that kind of mentality. I am sure this is not new to you.
> >
> >I will tell you one thing that Buganda does not wish for our brothers and sisters in the North to die. What is happening in the North is solely Museveni's and Kony's will. There is no democracy in Buganda nor at large Uganda. Therefore the blame can not be put on Buganda. We all know that power is centralized in the hands of one man. Obote introduced this system to our country. Let us not forgot history.
> >
> >I personally think that some (educated?) people are silly when they keep mentioning that "You are anti non-Baganda, you hate them" when they very well know that that is not true. They think that Federalism as being supported by Buganda is anti non-Baganda. What they forget is that each region of Uganda is unique and needs self-governance with power to lead itself in some matters. One can not expect the minister of agriculture in Kampala to know the agricultural problems facing the rural people deep inside Lango. The good example almost happened yesterday (not literally). When a certain minister decided that the best thing Uganda needs is TV-tax. TV-tax for a country where rural folks upcountry in Acholi have never owned a TV in their entire lives!! This is how sad this Unitary system is working against Ugandans. This minister sought to defend his point by saying that "m
any" Ugandans own TVs and they should pay taxes for them. In a Uganda where the majority of Ugandans are
> > rural people without any electricity to watch TVs with, not mentioning that they don't own any. This is how a ministry in Kampala can not be accurate with its accounts of what problems the people in Acholi or Lango are facing. When these ministers see TVs everywhere in Kampala, they tend to thing that TVs are in every corner of Uganda. I guess now you can see how Unitarism can give a blant picture of the country.
> >
> >But if Uganda was under Federalism, the Ministry of Information of Acholi or Lango can stand up in the regional matters and tell the population that TV-tax is dangerous for them. Especially when the rural people do own any because they can not afford it. TV-tax would therefore be anti-information and technology development for people in rural areas. Too much tax means that people will not be able to afford TVs (information). When shall our politicians ever get it??
> >
> >All in all, what I am saying is that the North needs to learn from Buganda and support Federalism. Ugandan Northerners need to wake up and understand what is wrong with our society. Some Northerners need to quit being in denial (fantasia) and admit that there is alot they can learn from Buganda. The arrogancy is weighing too much on the North and hurting innocent people in the long run. The North needs to forge a new beginning, by learning from Buganda concerning this bloodshed. The North needs to learn that you can not fight an enemy who is stronger than you (Museveni vs. Kony). The North needs to learn that it has got to work with the enemy (Mu7) whether it likes it or not; Buganda is doing the same. We all have no choice but SURVIVAL. The North needs to learn these rules of survival to keep itself alive. There are countless things the North can learn from
Bugan da.
> >
> >Let us be frank and admit the truth. This Northerners' arrogancy is taking Uganda nowhere. The cycle must be broken. The truth is bitter but it can not be denied. Let us work towards a reconciliation and let us all push for Federalism for the entire Uganda. Once Federalism is put in place, the Buganda Federal State will have no problem working with the Northern Federal States. The Buganda Federal State will have no problem with Northerners living in Buganda. Buganda has always beeing a multi-tribal melt pot of Uganda. What we need is Federalism and Democracy to develop to take its course. Wake up Uganda.
> >
> >Zakoomu M.
> >
> >=======================================================================
> >
> >Adam Dada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >Lisa Toro,
> >
> >I don't think we, as notherners, are the right people to talk about kindness
> >and friendship, nor do we even have the moral authority to do so. The
> >Baganda have shown us friendship and kindness over the centuries by allowing
> >us to live among themselves and almost assimilating (ask Mulindwa), to the
> >extent of even voting Obote to power in I962. How have they been repaid by
> >us? By abolishing the King and Kingdom, by murdering them in Luwero and
> >constantly persecuting them. We really have to work hard to justfy those
> >words you have used "kindness and friendship", and at least have some
> >remorse for once for our actions against the Baganda, instead of trying to
> >give them lectures about those virtues.They have not gained anything at all
> >from being kind and friendly to us. They are unlikely to accept a similar
> >situation in the future. Mine is a request to my kin and keith, including
> >you Lisa, to abandon that baseless arrongance and own up to the mistakes and
> >atrocities, and realize we have to learn alot from the Baganda not
> >vice-versa. Only then can we forge a new beginning.
> >Adam
> >
> >===============================================================================
> >
> > >From: "Lisa Toro"
> >
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Re: ugnet_: Re: Mulindwa is not Mulindwa! - Can the North survive
> > >without theSouth??
> > >Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 18:50:14 +0100
> > >
> > >emmanuel musaazi,
> > >
> > >Try the language of the cultured!, not the NRM opppressive and dictatorial
> > >style. Ugandans learn things in Buganda culture and indeed other cultures
> > >through kindness, friendship and understanding shown to them not the type
> > >of
> > >arrogance you showing here.
> > >
> > >Toro
> >
> >============================================================================
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: emmanuel musaazi
> > >To:
> > >Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 5:55 PM
> > >Subject: RE: ugnet_: Re: Mulindwa is not Mulindwa! - Can the North survive
> > >without theSouth??
> > >
> > >
> > > > ..to all those who are "buganda" challenged vis a vis buganda culture
> > >and
> > > > customs, and who feel they need to be educated, please check this
> > >website;
> > > > http://www.buganda.com.
> > > >
> >========================================================================================
> > > > >From: "jonah kasangwawo"
> > > > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >Subject: RE: ugnet_: Re: Mulindwa is not Mulindwa! - Can the North
> > >survive
> > > > >without the South??
> > > > >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:31:05 +0000
> > > > >
> > > > >Ms Mukooza,
> > > > >
> > > > >I hate wiseacres like Odwe. Instead of requesting to be educated, they
> > > > >display their ignorance about an issue by pretending to know more about
> > > > >that culture than the people who belong to it. There is nothing
> > >backward
> > > > >about the three phrases he refers to and therefore there is nothing
> > >wise
> > > > >about resisting them.
> > > > >
> > > > >I'm in no mood now to start explaining to him the whole background of
> > >those
> > > > >phrases, but I'd just like to point out to him that 'yedira ki' (i.e.
> > >the
> > > > >clans) is the basis on which the whole Kiganda culture is built on. The
> > > > >clans are the means through which a Muganda can identify him/herself.
> > >There
> > > > >are several reasons why one has to know which clan he/she belongs to.
> > >For
> > > > >more information he should ask a Muganda near him (but he has to be a
> > >real
> > > > >Muganda).
> > > > >
> > > > >Kasangwawo
> > > > >
> >==========================================================================================
> > > > >>From: Rehema Mukooza
> > > > >>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> > > > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >>Subject: ugnet_: Re: Mulindwa is not Mulindwa! - Can the North survive
> > > > >>without the South??
> > > > >>Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:57:43 -0800 (PST)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Odwe:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Hahahaha, do not make me laugh! "Oyo yedira ki, mwana wani, oyo
> > > > >>munamawanga etc" is practiced by Northerners. Recently these
> > >Northerners
> > > > >>refused to apologize to Luwero people for the atrocities they
> > >committed
> > >on
> > > > >>them. The reason was because they are Baganda. These Northerners
> > > > >>apologized or burried the differences between themselves (Acholi,
> > >Langi,
> > > > >>Teso) but they could not do the same to themselves. You see with such
> > > > >>kind of discrimination, do you really think Museveni is stupid?? He
> > >can
> > > > >>deal with that nonsense real well and manipulate it to his own
> > >advantage.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Uganda has tribes and tribal identity is very alive. We have Odwe who
> > > > >>identifies himself as a Northerner. Why do Northerners want to fit in
> > >in
> > > > >>Buganda, anyway?? May I ask. Why don't they like Southerners in the
> > > > >>North and yet they want to come to the South?? This is the kind of
> > > > >>nonsense and sillyness many Northerners feed on. They are indeed
> > >living
> > > > >>in a fantasia. They panic whenever a Southerner buys land in the
> > >North.
> > > > >>Why?? Because our brothers and sisters in the North descriminate
> > >against
> > > > >>tribes. That's how they've have been in the past and I don't see them
> > > > >>changing in the near future either.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Edward is not what he is presenting himself to be to us. That's the
> > > > >>truth. Odwe, you can make up stories of how you've meet this man and
> > >I
> > > > >>don't give an ear to such lies. Any fool can come here and try to
> > > > >>convience me how he/she has met "Mulindwa". And how "Mulindwa" never
> > > > >>asked for his/her tribe. I have had a different encounter of
> > >"Mulindwa"
> > > > >>contrally to yours. The first thing Edward ever asked me on this
> > >forum
> > > > >>when I was new as my tribe. He automatically tribalized me to the
> > >Kiganda
> > > > >>tribe. That's why I can not believe this lie of yours. I am a
> > >critical
> > > > >>thinker. This nonsense can not work with me. Try a new lie.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Uganda is diverse. We have to accept that. More Northerners are
> > >moving
> > > > >>Southwards than Southerners moving North, in times of peace. Why??
> > >This
> > > > >>is the kind of stupidity I will not tolerate. Can the North survive
> > > > >>without the South?? You need to have sense in your brain cells.
> > >Uganda
> > > > >>is tired of liars like you, that is why this country is stil
> > >backwards.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Zakoomu M.
> >
> >===========================================================================================
> > > > >>
> > > > >>joseph odwe wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Members
> > > > >>
> > > > >>There are many other important things we should be focusing on instead
> > >of
> > > > >>allowing ourselves to be diverted by the itellectually lost bunch, who
> > > > >>have opted for such silyness in the absence of sound keen reasoning to
> > >any
> > > > >>inteligent questions and points put to them. The questions and points
> > >to
> > > > >>which they solicite by their obvious hunger for knowledge depicted
> > >through
> > > > >>their utterances here on the forum. I happened to meet Mr. Mulindwa
> > >back
> > > > >>in 2000 when he visted London Ontario from his base then in Toronto.
> > > > >>Belief me he is what Uganda needs. He is one of those who have seen
> > >the
> > > > >>wisdom in resisting the "oyo yedira ki, mwana wani, oyo munamawanga
> > >etc"
> > > > >>bakward thinking that some regretably share to this day. In fact I
> > >don't
> > > > >>remember Mulindwa having asked me as the tribe I belong to. After
> > >being
> > > > >>introduced to him as a fellow Ugandan we got right into normal
> > >coversation
> > > > >>that lead us to the brain storming about our country's herples
> > >situation.
> > > > >>I must also admit that during the discusi
> > > > >> on he
> > > > >> opened my mind so much as to what we could do as an individual and
> > >as
> > >a
> > > > >>group to futher the cause of our motherland. Let's stop dweling on
> > > > >>individualistic interests that tend divid our people along
> > >un-productive
> > > > >>ventures. Anyone who advocates for any form of protectionistic
> > >approach
> > >to
> > > > >>any issue would only be admitting the weakness of such product or in
> > >this
> > > > >>case culture to trive by itself along side others. Fellow Ugandans who
> > > > >>have sturbonly chosen to live in the oudated thinking and mindset
> > >which
> > > > >>imprisons their productive reasoning capacity would rather hold the
> > >whole
> > > > >>country in captivity than think anew. To those I say open your mind
> > >for
> > > > >>new ideas and thinking please. Uganda can entertain divisionitic
> > >gosips
> > > > >>any longer. We have an tremendous task to free our motherland at hand.
> > >To
> > > > >>whose side are playing on such thinking and waste of energy or you'r
> > >at
> > > > >>work?
> > > > >>
> >===========================================================================================
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >From: "aokwong-okumu"
> > > > >> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >> >To: ,
> > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Ugandacom] Mulindwa is not Mulindwa! - is this a joke?
> > > > >> >Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:08:37 -0500
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >HI,
> > > > >> > Mulindwa is MULINDWA, alive in the same skin I have known him in
> > > > >>since September 1989 when I came to Toronto and met him. He has grown
> > >day
> > > > >>and night, intellectually since the advent the world wide web. The
> > > > >>unfortunate thing about UGANDANS is that they think and believe that
> > >one
> > > > >>is educated only and only if he went into a class or lecture hall. It
> > >is
> > >a
> > > > >>myopic belief, which those who have it and their classroom/lecture
> > >hall
> > > > >>education think they have a right and only them can
> > > > >>comment/analyse/prescribe to Uganda's political chaos. My brother
> > >Mulindwa
> > > > >>gooo on, make their blood boil with your incisive questions and
> > >commentry.
> > > > >>May Allah sharpen your mind and make it more potent!.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Aloysius.
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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