--- On Thu 09/05, Kenneth Whistler < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Kenneth Whistler [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:27:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: various stroked characters
> Peter,
>
> Here's my take on your questions.
>
> > The less clear cases involve b, d and g.
> >
> > 1) Lower case "b" with a horizontal stroke through the bowl
> (hereafter
> > "b-stroke-bowl") is used in some phonetic traditions for
> voiced bilabial
> > fricative (beta, in IPA). The annotation for U+0180 ("b"
> with a horizontal
> > stroke across the ascender) indicates that one of its intended
> purposes is
> > for phonetic transcription of the same phone. Of course, U+03B2
> (beta) also
> > has this function and is not unified with 0180, but these are
> clearly
> > distinct characters (e.g. 0180 and 03B2 have other unrelated
> functions). I
> > can't imagine anyone using b-stroke-bowl contrastively with 0180.
> Thus,
> > probably the best option is to treat b-stroke-bowl as a typographic
> variant
> > of 0180.
> >
> > Any opinions confirming this view or to the contrary?
>
> I agree.
>
> This is what Pullum and Ladusaw called the "Barred B", as
> opposed to the
> Indo-European "Crossed B" (i.e. U+0180):
>
> "By a general convention, barred stop symbols (with a superimposed
> hyphen or short dash through the body of the letter) are often used
> to represent those fricatives for which the IPA symbols are not used.
> The resultant symbols have the advantage of being easy to type on an
> unmodified typewriter."
>
> By the way, there is also the "Slashed B", which is another
> alternative
> form for the Barred B, used for the same purpose, but instantiated by
> typing b
>
> For what it is worth, the founders of Unicode considered these three
> forms to be allographs of an abstract barred-b character, so that is
> what the current situation is. Trying to separately encode a "Barred
> B"
> distinct from the "Crossed B" would, at this point, constitute
> an
> explicit disunification, rather than simply a discovery of an overlooked
> character to encode.
>
> > 2) Next, consider the g. The representative glyph in TUS3.0 for
> U+01E5
> > shows a double-bowl g with a horizontal stroke through both sides of
> the
> > bottom bowl. The annotation indicates that it is used for Skolt
> Saami.
> > Looking at a few fonts, I see some variations: Andale Mono and Code
> 2000
> > have a double-bowl g with a horizontal stroke through *the right side
> only*
> > of the lower bowl; Lucida Sans Unicode and Arial Unicode MS have a
> > single-bowl g with a horizontal stroke through the right side only of
> the
> > bowl.
>
> Pullum and Ladusaw show two other glyphic alternatives:
>
> "Barred G" with an IPA style "g" and a horizontal
> stroke through the bowel.
>
> "Crossed G" with an IPA style "g" and a horizontal
> stroke through the descender.
>
> >
> > Now, what I'm concerned with is a g (single-bowl in all instances
> I'm
> > familiar with) that has a horizontal stroke through both sides of
> the
> > (upper -- only) bowl, used in some phonetic traditions to represent
> a
> > voiced velar fricative (IPA gamma). Any opinions on whether to treat
> this
> > as a new character or as a typographic variant of U+01E5?
>
> All allographs of the same underlying character. The same concepts
> and analogies apply here. The "Crossed G" was probably
> explicitly
> formed by analogy from the more-attested Crossed B and Crossed D.
> The ones with horizontal strokes through the bowel are all just
> variants on what happens when you backspace and put a hyphen across
> your "g".
>
>
> > 3) Finally, the d. Unicode has three upper-case stroked-d characters
> for
> > which the representative glyphs are identical, but which have
> distinct
> > lower-case counterparts (the basis for having three distinct
> upper-case
> > characters). Of the three pairs, two really aren't relevant to this
> > discussion. The one relevant pair is U+0110 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D
> WITH
> > STROKE, and U+0111 LATIN SMALL LETTER D WITH STROKE.
> >
> > Now, in some phonetic traditions, a "d" with a horizontal
> stroke through
> > the bowl (both sides) is used for a voiced interdental fricative
> (IPA
> > U+00F0). Some phonetic traditions represent this using U+0111.
> >
> > I've also learned of some African languages that are written with
> upper and
> > lower stroked d; I've seen samples that show some glyph variation:
> some
> > samples show a horizontal stroke that crosses both sides (both upper
> and
> > lower case); other samples show the horizontal stroke on only one
> side --
> > through the stem of the upper case (just like U+00D0, U+0110 and
> U+0189),
> > and through the right side of the bowl of the lower case (not through
> the
> > ascender, as shown in the charts for U+0111).
> >
> > So, again: any opinions on whether d-stroke-bowl should be unified
> with
> > U+0111 or considered a new character?
>
> Again, all allographs of the same underlying character. And once
> again, as for "b", there are, in addition to the "Crossed
> D" and
> "Barred D" allographs, also a "Slashed D" allograph.
>
> There is no need to proliferate distinct encodings for these, whether the
> slashes of the "Barred D" forms go all the way across or just
> partway
> across either the lowercase and/or the uppercase forms. Those are just
> various typographic attempts to do decent design for the letter forms
> based on the concept of having to apply a horizontal stroke to the
> "d"/"D" forms.
>
> --Ken
>
>
--Reply--
Hello again, Ken and all Unicoders!
Concerning horizontally-barred/crossed consonants, I've observed the following:
·BARRED CONSONANTS ALREADY IN UNICODE: b-bar (L-C only), D-bar/d-bar, G-bar/g-bar, H-bar/h-bar, l-bar (L-C only), T-bar/t-bar
·BARRED CONSONANTS *NOT YET* IN UNICODE—THUS NEEDING PROPOSALS FOR INCLUSION: B-bar (H-C form), K-bar/k-bar, L-bar (H-C form), P-bar/p-bar (with crossbar through upper bowl), Q-bar/q-bar (for voiced *quf*), R-bar/r-bar, S-bar/s-bar, X-bar/x-bar . . . .
Several of these barred consonants (b-bar, d-bar, g-bar, k-bar) are used in the Padre Recuero Transliteration of Ladino, while (h-bar) is used in Maltese—and in the UMRE system (there for voiced *h*). Please take heed to the "need proposals for inclusion" list very seriously.
Thank You!
Robert Lloyd Wheelock
Augusta, ME USA
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