Attn: Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
C/o Magda Danish
Sr Administrative Director
Unicode Inc
<p...@ingerman.org>,
<v-mag...@microsoft.com>,
Appended are 3 threads in reverse chronological order highlighting
Unicode Inc had in the past copied some letters/symbols from Greek
script and then each copied letter/symbol was re-named as Latin
assigning new code-point as opposed to its origin.
(a) In this regard, could you reply back with the entire list of
letters/symbols that were copied and re-named.
(b) Did Unicode Inc publish the whole or part of the list of copied
letters/symbols in any scholarly journal of International reputation?
If so could you send the references of such publications.
(c) If Unicode Inc did not publish in any scholarly journal of
international reputation, then what were the scholarly basis that it
used in order to copy and duplicate and subsequently to assign Latin
name?
(d) In this way, in future, how many letters/symbols Unicode Inc
intend to copy and why would it not just use the same code-point
instead of copying from other script(s)?
Thank you in advance for the information.
Tulasi
====================Thread 1, Aug 14, 2011====================
From: Richard Wordingham<richard.wording...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Subject: Greek Characters Duplicated as Latin (was: Sanskrit nasalized
L)
To: unicode Unicode Discussion<unicode@unicode.org>
On Sat, 6 Aug 2011 17:25:11 -0700
tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com> wrote:
- Why did Unicode Inc copies some letters/symbols from Greek-script
irresponsibly and renamed as Latin-script?
- Why din't it (Unicode Inc) use same Greek letters/symbols?
U+00B5 MICRO SIGN is an ISO-8859-1 character, and was therefore
included as U+00B5. It normally precedes a Latin-script letter, and
therefore it actually makes sense to treat it as a Latin-script
character, and possibly give it a different shape in these contexts to
the shape of the Greek letter in Greek text.
The glyphs of U+0251 LATIN SMALL LETTER ALPHA are glyphs of U+0061
LATIN SMALL LETTER A - they have been given separate character status
because IPA uses it as a contrasting character, as with U+0261 LATIN
SMALL LETTER SCRIPT G.
U+1E9F LATIN SMALL LETTER DELTA looks to me like a glyph variant of
U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER D, but I may be wrong - look up the proposal
if you're really interested.
U+0216 OHM SIGN is similar to U+00B5 MICRO SIGN, except that it is
used
on its own. Whether it should be merged with U+03A9 GREEK CAPITAL
LETTER OMEGA is debatable, but that is what has been done.
The reason for the encoding of the next four letters as Latin
characters is that they have a special role in the IPA. Three of them
have been used in extensions of the Roman alphabets for various
languages, and thereby acquired capital letters.
U+0263 LATIN SMALL LETTER GAMMA is for IPA usage, and tends to have
different glyphs to the Greek letter. When used to extend the Roman
alphabet, its capital is different to the Greek form, so this fact
also
calls for a different lower case letter.
U+025B LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN E has the same explanation as
U+0263.
U+0278 LATIN SMALL LETTER PHI is for IPA usage, and, unlike Greek,
always has an ascender.
There is also the principal of script separation, whereby different
scripts do not share base characters. This has led to some
duplication, e.g U+0269 LATIN SMALL LETTER IOTA, originally for IPA.
Its capital, U+0196 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER IOTA, is not the same as the
Greek capital iota.
I hope this makes things clearer.
Richard.
====================Thread 2, Jul 13, 2010====================
From: Mahesh T. Pai<paiva...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: unicode@unicode.org
Tulasi said on Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 03:25:01PM -0700,:
> Can you email the list of Latin letters/symbols that Unicode
discovered?
>
> Can you also email list of letters/symbols that are not Latin but
each
> has LATIN in its name?
>
> Can you email the list of these letters/symbols as well, including
names?
<sarcasm>
+10000^1000000 to that.
Unicode should not keep such information secret.
What do you guys at Unicode think? That such information is a state
secret or what? Huh?
C'mon, out with it!!!!
</sarcasm>
Sigh!! Some people never read replies. They just ask.
--
Mahesh T. Pai || http://[paivakil|fizzard].blogspot.com
Free Software - it is free as in FREEDOM
From: Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: Mark Davis ☕<m...@macchiato.com>
Cc: Unicode Mailing List<unicode@unicode.org>, Doug Ewell
<d...@ewellic.org>, Edward Cherlin<echer...@gmail.com>
Link is working, thanks! I spent some times with no luck on link as
well as unicode.org, because I wanted to find:
The list of Latin letters/symbols that Unicode has discovered.
Here, a letter/symbol with LATIN in its name in Unicode/ISO is a Latin
letter/symbol. And I call a "Latin letter/symbol" discovered by
Unicode if it created the name before ISO in the standard otherwise
discovered by ISO.
Can you email the list of Latin letters/symbols that Unicode
discovered?
Can you also email list of letters/symbols that are not Latin but each
has LATIN in its name?
The merger between Unicode and ISO 10646 caused a few character names in
Unicode to be changed to match the 10646 names.
Can you email the list of these letters/symbols as well, including
names?
Thanks,
Tulasi
From: Mark Davis ☕<m...@macchiato.com>
Date: Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com>
Cc: Unicode Mailing List<unicode@unicode.org>, Doug Ewell
<d...@ewellic.org>, Edward Cherlin<echer...@gmail.com>
See the following for the (many) differences between characters with
the Latin script, and those with LATIN in their names.
http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/unicodeset.jsp?a=\p{script:latin}&b=\p{name:/LATIN/}
I'd suggest taking a more focused approach to learning about the
standard, rather than trying relatively scattershot questions to this
list. You might read through at least the first 3 chapters of the
Unicode Standard, plus the Scripts UAX. These are all online for free
at unicode.org.
Mark
From: Doug Ewell<d...@ewellic.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 16:09:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: Unicode Mailing List<unicode@unicode.org>
Cc: Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com>
"Tulasi"<tulasird at gmail dot com> wrote:
U+00AA FEMININE ORDINAL INDICATOR (which does not contain "LATIN") is
considered part of the Latin script, while U+271D LATIN CROSS (which
does) is considered common to all scripts.
Can you post both symbols please, thanks?
I can point you to http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0080.pdf , which
includes a glyph for U+00AA, and
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2700.pdf , which includes a glyph
for
U+271D. I don't think it's necessary to post these glyphs to the
public
list.
Trying to know who among ISO and Unicode first created the names' list
for Latin-script is not an indication of obsession :-')
So among Unicode and ISO/IEC, who first created ISO/IEC 8859-1&
ISO/IEC 8859-2 letters/symbols names with each name with LATIN in it?
Most of the characters in the various parts of ISO 8859 were
originally
standardized before Unicode or ISO 10646, so the names were probably
either created by the ISO/IEC subcommittees responsible for those
parts,
or found in earlier standards and adopted as-is.
The merger between Unicode and ISO 10646 caused a few character names
in
Unicode to be changed to match the 10646 names.
--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ is dot gd slash 2kf0s
====================Thread 3, Jun 11, 2010====================
From: Edward Cherlin<echer...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com>
Cc: unicode@unicode.org
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 02:44, Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark -> http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=\p{sc%3DLatn}
I think I have got the answer to my question in above link. Thanks Mark!
I assume that you know that punctuation and Hindu-Arabic numerals came
in much later, and the rest of what is now ASCII, some of ISO-8859-*,
and typographic font repertoires for English, including arithmetic,
typographic, and commercial symbols, much later still. Carolingian
minuscule began as an alternate form of traditional Latin calligraphy.
Combining minuscule and majuscule came in later, quite gradually. The
distinction of upper and lower case could not be made until type cases
became common in print shops in the Renaissance. There are some
subtleties about variant Latin letters used in Math, the Letterlike
Symbols block, single-width and double-width letters, and a few other
places in Unicode.
Any letter/symbol has LATIN as part of its name should be part of
present day Latin-script.
Close, but not quite. Consider LATIN SMALL LETTER PHI (ɸ).
Is there any new letter/symbol added to Latin-script after creation of Unicode?
Thanks to all for answering my question, especially Jony has answered
with classic-definition of Latin-script (Latin-script did not have
lower-case letters until probably late 8th
century).
Tulasi
From: Mark Davis<m...@macchiato.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 21:26:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com>
Cc: unicode@unicode.org
For definitions, there are many references. For Unicode characters, the
Standard defines a property in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/ and
http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/Scripts.txt. Here is the current list:
http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=\p{sc%3DLatn}
Mark
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 20:39, Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jony -> A B C D E F G H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X Y Z
?
You mean ALL CAPS again like UNICODE :)
Van -> Do you mean historically or pragmatically?
Actually something that will include all letters/symbols now
considered Latin-script
Otto Stolz -> Not exactly a definition: What the Unicode standard says
on this issue, is here:
There might be someone who already defined Latin script!
Europeans have produced lot of scholars.
Tulasi
From: Jonathan Rosenne<j...@qsm.co.il>
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:05:11 +0300
Subject: RE: Latin Script
To: unicode@unicode.org
How about
A B C D E F G H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X Y Z
?
There are also some extensions, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet for general background.
Jony
-----Original Message-----
From: unicode-bou...@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] On
Behalf Of Tulasi
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 11:27 AM
To: unicode@unicode.org
Subject: Latin Script
How do you define Latin Script?
From: vanis...@boil.afraid.org
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 12:18:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: tulas...@gmail.com, unicode@unicode.org
From: Tulasi (tulas...@gmail.com)
How do you define Latin Script?
Do you mean historically or pragmatically? Historically, it is an
adaptation of the Ionian Greek (or is it Doric?), via Etruscan, for
the purpose of writing Latin, and later extended by the addition of
alternate letterforms (J, W, Þ, and the lower case) and diacritics to
the use of western European languages and globally to indigenous
languages in primary contact with western European languages that use
the Latin alphabet.
Pragmatically, it is the collection of characters that are used in
languages in conjunction with the primary collection of Roman derived
letterforms as an alphabetic script. This means that the syllabic
Fraser Lisu is not Latin script. Neither is Cyrillic, even though it
has imported Dze and Je - the basic Latin alphabet does not constitute
the core of Cyrillic usage.
Typographic tradition also plays a part - Greek would probably be a
lot more ambiguous if it hadn't developed typographically among
Byzantine scribes. Latin typography developed primarily among
post-Roman and Carolignian scribal traditions, with offshoot
blackletter and Italic scribal traditions that have secondary status
in the modern script. Greek and Cyrillic don't share this history, and
as such, even though they are structurally similar, they have evolved
along different lines and constitute distinct scripts. The fact that
you don't find languages that mix the two up is evidence of these
schizms. The border languages choose one or the other, or they have
two different orthographies that use each script independently of the
other.
Van
From: Otto Stolz<otto.st...@uni-konstanz.de>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:50:23 +0200
Subject: Re: Latin Script
To: Tulasi<tulas...@gmail.com>
Cc: unicode@unicode.org
Am 2010-06-06 10:26, schrieb Tulasi:
How do you define Latin Script?
Not exactly a definition: What the Unicode standard
says on this issue, is here:
7.1 Latin
<http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.2.0/ch07.pdf#G4321>
And a few words, e. g. “well-known”, are also here:
6.1 Writing Systems
<http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.2.0/ch06.pdf#G7382>
Best wishes,
Otto Stolz
--
Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
http://www.earthtreasury.org/
