any compiler chatter? asking for an interested party On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 7:26 PM Mark Smith via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> Hi Mike, sorry I thought it would have been copied with the reply. The > original post from Skip Kimpel was more or less asking if LC is compiled. > The exact post was… > > "Wait… what? I have been away from this list for a while, LC is > not currently compilable?? > > SKIP” > > I do have a question based on your reply. You indicate LC doesn’t compile > but then go on to list all of the stuff it compiles into a standalone > application (most of which, such as the LC engine, extensions, libraries, > etc) are just (I would argue) libraries when it builds an application. > Taking the definition of compiler as “a process to convert (a program) into > a machine-code < > https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&channel=mac_bm&q=machine-code&si=AMnBZoFOMBUphduq9VwZxsuReC7YV6BL3UJP9cGsG2J_mNMPwgWXqX8HuVPC8gyFB81-plMkPkEzmbteRge93xxj5qVwJdYjXSPc2zeY_vz8RKYr_9tAP6Q%3D&expnd=1> > or a lower-level < > https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&channel=mac_bm&q=lower-level&si=AMnBZoG9fGMZkoPgk-g4eVoaZFdERA6BgFgTvewAwu3qykvLOcqyjsbvyNVL0k7ItNaeg3uetPXhm4wenDJM9iNdxIwXbgNT_MfjGFunU2ur_NpUowaHa-E%3D&expnd=1> > form in which the program can be executed.” I would argue it “sort of” does > that in that the included scripts (as I understand it) are not in their > original editable form but have been converted into something that is more > easily interpreted by the engine. I know it’s not ML, nor is it bytecode, > but it’s one step removed from the actually editable text in the script > editor. Would’t you agree? > > The true advantage of the byte code, I believe, is that it brings LC in > line with other similar compilers and therefore allows a more sophisticated > (and standardised) approach to code optimisation. Or at least that will be > one of the advantages. Obfuscation of code, as you mention, is another > (although I have never personally worried about anyone wanting to steal my > code 😊). > > Mark > > > > On 29 May 2023, at 5:56 pm, Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I don't see the original post, so I can only part-comment on this. > > LC doesn't compile, per se. It builds standalone apps for all > > platforms, but those apps include the LC engine, extensions, > > libraries, and your stack(s). There is an obfuscator, but, no, no > > bytecode or ML, yet. The apps behave as you would expect a standalone > > app to behave, but, with a disassembler, you will have an easier time > > with them than you would with a ML or BC compiled app. > > The good news is that the current architecture makes remote debugging > > from mobes much simpler, and, whether you are on a desktop or mobile > > platform, you can include functionality such as side-loading and > > real-time code execution trivially. > > For example, let's say you have a debug build. If you include a button > > in your debug build, with the following script, you can prompt for a > > command, and execute it, live, in your standalone: > > > > on mouseUp > > global gDo > > ask "Do what?" with gDo > > if it is not empty then > > put it into gDo > > do gDo > > end if > > end mouseUp > > > > The above script will also, as I am sure you deduced, store the last > > command you typed, and prompt you with it, the next time you press the > > button. > > This is, of course, especially useful if you want to invoke the > > debugger and then debug some routine. You can do that like by clicking > > the button I just described, and then typing into the dialog: > > breakpoint;send "mouseUp" to button "someButton" # steps you through > > the debug button script, then to the mouseUp handler of "someButton" > > > > We are all patiently waiting for the script compiler, which, as of > > last conversation with Mark W., is going to be a bytecode compiler, > > not a ML compiler. > > > > On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 6:27 AM Mark Smith via use-livecode > > <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Skip, > >> > >> I’m surprised no one has taken a stab at answering this. I'm certainly > no expert on the internal workings of LC or compilers but I can take a stab > at articulating what I think the answer is, and when I get it wrong someone > else can jump in to correct me (I should probably know this stuff better > anyway). > >> > >> So if I am correct, the current environment converts LC script into > some sort of (possibly binary) tree structure that is better organised to > be executed by the LC engine. The engine is a big chunk of what I think is > mostly Obj C (or some relative thereof) code that interprets the tree > structures created in the first phase. So I guess that makes it sort of > compiled? Compiled to execute in/on the LC engine, but also interpreted > because the tree code is not executed on the target platform directly but > is interpreted by the engine to generate the final executable result. > >> > >> As far as the script compiler project is concerned, I believe the goal > is to create a byte code stream that can be interpreted more efficiently by > (a possibly new?) engine. Not sure about the new engine part, but the idea > is the tree structure thing goes away and in its place is a linear stream > of byte codes that can both be executed more effiencetly but also optimised > more fully. This particular byte stream (and here I’m going way outside my > wheelhouse) is similar to what other compilers like Java, Python, (Pascal? > — which I do know was a byte code compiled run time interpreted language… > although companies like Borland eventually wrote Pascal compilers that > executed directly on the target platform without any interpretation) > produce. So, it would bring the LC compiled code more in line with what > other compilers are producing which means post compilation the code could > be optimised more completely using well developed industry standard > approaches. And so everything ends up a little smaller and faster but it > also opens the door to doing other things with the script code down the > road. > >> > >> Well, that's my take on Mark Waddinghams’ most recent seminar on this > topic. But he assuredly can fill you in much better than I can. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 28 May 2023, at 3:54 pm, Skip Kimpel via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Wait… what? I have been away from this list for a while, LC is not > currently compilable?? > >>> > >>> SKIP > >>> > >>>> On May 27, 2023, at 4:39 PM, harrison--- via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Skip, > >>>> > >>>> Doubtful. I would wait until after we have a compilable version of > LC and then it will be more possible. > >>>> > >>>> Rick > >>>> > >>>>> On May 27, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Skip Kimpel via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Has anybody done anything with LC and AR? > >>>>> > >>>>> Curious minds want to know :) > >>>>> > >>>>> SKIP > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
