On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Jacob Hansson <ja...@voltvoodoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Alex, sorry this response took me so long, see responses inline! > > 2010/9/10 Alexandru Popescu ☀ <the.mindstorm.mailingl...@gmail.com> > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2010, Jacob Hansson <ja...@voltvoodoo.com> wrote: >> > 2010/9/6 Alexandru Popescu ☀ <the.mindstorm.mailingl...@gmail.com> >> > >> >> On Monday, September 6, 2010, Jim Webber <j...@webber.name> wrote: >> >> > Hi Alex, >> >> > >> >> >> While I still can achieve all these with the current packaging, it >> >> >> feels more "hacky": I need to create a new Jetty6BasedWebServer or >> >> >> modify the existing one to enhance it with my own stuff. Each change >> >> >> would require compiling and repackaging the whole neo4j-rest. >> >> >> Definitely not as easy as dropping in my own jar and a new web.xml. >> >> > >> >> > That's an interesting point. In a sense, the neo-rest package is >> Neo's >> >> REST package. >> >> >> >> Interesting... My main question is: what exactly is this package >> >> offering to the end user in the current form? IMO it cannot be an >> >> off-the-shelf product as there is no security. It is not a library >> >> either, as extending it is not so easy. Basically, and without any >> >> intention to harm any feelings, it looks like one of those dummy "web >> >> UI interface to X". And I'd say it has much more potential than that! >> >> >> >> >> >> Jacob, >> >> I must confess I'm totally confused by your comments below. >> >> > I've always seen it as the beginnings of a proper stand-alone neo4j >> server. >> >> If it is the beginning, then what comes next? And more importantly >> from whom? Basically my proposal was meant to make things easier for >> people to built on top of it, so I'm not really sure how you see the >> continuation of it. >> > > There is lots of cool things that can be done next. Both continuing to > extend the functionality of the REST server, but also (and more importantly) > to look at and help out with the work being done on clients for the server > in various languages. For instance I'd love to see simple-to-use ORMs on top > of the python and php clients, enabling web developers to start building > stuff with Neo4j as their database tier. > > Just to clarify (trying to keep my answers less confusing :) ): To answer the last portion of your question, I think making neo4j REST more extensible is great (see my last answer). However, I read your initial proposal as an argument for viewing neo4j-rest as a library and for switching to a WAR packaging model. Both of which I strongly oppose *if* it is done at the expense of the stand alone application. >> > A REST/JSON API to Neo4j opens up for remote clients in any language, >> and >> > would be an important part in matching offerings from other database >> > vendors. While extendability is a great thing, building it as a library >> > and/or packaging it as a WAR makes it very java-centric. >> > >> >> Currently the neo4j-rest is distributed as a java application. So it >> is java-centric. What makes it attractive is that it allows using the >> HTTP protocol. Providing neo4j-rest as both a self contained app and >> as a web app will give you exactly the same benefits, with additional >> freedom on choosing how to use it, what servers to deploy it too, etc. >> > > True, the neo4j-rest project is, but I see the biggest potential of the > REST project in it's stand-alone version, neo4j-rest-standalone. The reason > for that is precisely what I mentioned before, the fact that it is not java > centric. > > Distributing both as a WAR and as a stand-alone application sounds like a > great solution! > > >> >> > Like you say, there is no security, and I agree it is currently the main >> > culprit stopping neo4j REST from production use. This can of course be >> > offset with firewalling etc, but I couldn't agree more of the importance >> of >> > a proper security layer. >> > >> >> Security was used as a basic example of things that could be much >> easier to be added on top of the neo4j-rest if provided in a simpler >> format. As you probably know already firewalls will give you at most a >> very basic sort of authentication, but nothing else. >> > >> > As far as "UI interface to X" goes, the area to focus on I think is the >> JSON >> > part of the API. With that, a UI can be built in any language. Take a >> look >> > at http://github.com/neo4j/webadmin for a more powerful browsing UI for >> > neo4j REST. >> > >> >> I think you mis-read my post. I'm not looking for a nice UI, but >> rather for a basis to further build REST services on top of a neo4j >> db. As Jim mentioned in his posts, currently neo4j-rest is just >> exposing the basics of a neo4j db. >> >> > It's true that the functionality exposed by neo4j-rest so far is fairly > basic. There are several important parts of the neo4j API that should be > exposed via REST (like transactions). I don't see that as an argument to > make neo4j-rest more extendable though, as I feel these core items should be > added the same way the data browsing, index and traversal APIs have been > added. > > That said - extendability would be a great thing, and there are ways to > make neo4j-rest much more accessible than it is today. I know Andreas is > looking into the possibility of making neo4j-rest use OSGi-magic, which if > implemented would make it possible to hot-deploy extensions into neo4j-rest > as well as package extensions with it. > > I think the main reason of our disagreement (and my confusing answers :) ) > is that we view neo4j-rest from two sides. I see it through the eyes of a > web-developer. I'm used to having my database at some given port and a > client in my web tier that throws work at the database. You see it as a > powerful tool to easily expose the data part of an app via HTTP, to be > combined with other things exposed from the same app. > > I don't think there is a reason why neo4j-rest couldn't do both :) > > >> :- alex >> >> > >> > >> >> > However the notion of just letting end users write their own code >> hadn't >> >> occurred at least to me. I guess I always assumed that if users really >> >> wanted a domain specific API then they'd write their own. But the >> notion of >> >> user-registered filters (at least) is pretty sensible. >> >> > >> >> >> >> I think your initial assumption makes a lot of sense. But why would >> >> one have to duplicate all the work when this could provide him not >> >> only with a good example, but a common basis for a complete solution. >> >> I'm looking at it from the perspective of a DB vizualization tool: >> >> what's in there offers you the default view. Next you could build your >> >> own views, etc. You could even build your complete application using >> >> it. >> >> >> >> Best thing is that I don't even think it is difficult to get it being >> >> more a matter of packaging than anything else. All would be needed: >> >> >> >> - a web.xml file with some configuration options in it (db location) >> >> - providing better access to the GraphDatabaseService (see my previous >> >> suggestion) and other common shared resources (IndexService, etc) >> >> - a different final package in form of a war >> >> - done >> >> >> >> Does it make sense to you? >> >> >> >> :- alex >> >> >> >> > Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Neo4j mailing list >> >> > User@lists.neo4j.org >> >> > https://lists.neo4j.org/mailman/listinfo/user >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Neo4j mailing list >> >> User@lists.neo4j.org >> >> https://lists.neo4j.org/mailman/listinfo/user >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Jacob Hansson >> > Phone: +46 (0) 763503395 >> > Twitter: @jakewins >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Neo4j mailing list >> > User@lists.neo4j.org >> > https://lists.neo4j.org/mailman/listinfo/user >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Neo4j mailing list >> User@lists.neo4j.org >> https://lists.neo4j.org/mailman/listinfo/user >> > > > > -- > Jacob Hansson > Phone: +46 (0) 763503395 > Twitter: @jakewins > -- Jacob Hansson Phone: +46 (0) 763503395 Twitter: @jakewins _______________________________________________ Neo4j mailing list User@lists.neo4j.org https://lists.neo4j.org/mailman/listinfo/user
