Jon, I think most of use were well aware of the merger. See : http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-user&m=113321040221316&w=2
We've hashed over this before you showed up: and this : http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=113348813300002&r=1&w=2 You might want search our archive a bit. > >> > >> Anyway, I have one question that intrigues me. Did you understand what > >> was going on with this before today? > >> > >> I mean, this has been in the works for over 3 months, I think. > >> > >>> So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same > >>> thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec .... that's NOT a > >>> problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. > >>> GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, Bart, Webwork has been there for years, available for guys like > >> you to use. The Struts guys didn't do the work to make that technology > >> come about. That was done by the Webwork guys of course. > >> > >> They're not making anything available to you that wasn't already > >> available. So, all this stuff about BRILLIANT, shouting this in all > >> caps, seems a tad over the top to me... > >> > >> The only thing that's going on is that Struts 1.x fell way behind > >> being the state of the art. Due to its visibility/projection > >> non-technical assets, it was able to attract new users, like you -- as > >> recently as 9 months ago, despite being technically obsolete. > >> > >> Now you've made an investment, building applications on top of Struts > >> 1.x and it's brilliant that they move to the Webwork codebase > >> (relabelling that as Struts Action 2.) > >> > >> BUT.... you could have simply avoided all the bother -- if you knew > >> what was going on -- by using Webwork in the first place! > >> > >> > >>> Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have > >>> stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How > >>> on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious > >>> progress forward be stagnation! > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, there are various issues here. You have the fact that the > >> innovative work was done elsewhere, yet the community that, somehow, > >> despite its built-in advantages, was not able to innovate, swallows > >> the community that did the innovative work, and imposes their culture > >> and project management practices on them. This is, in general, a kind > >> of problem IMO. > >> > >> This discussion originated in the context of discussing open source > >> project management. Various Struts/ASF bigwigs were being -- at least > >> AFAICS -- quite arrogant about the so-called "Apache Way" being the > >> last word in how everything has to be done. > >> > >> This ultimately got me questioning openly how on earth they can say > >> this. In this Struts/Webwork merger, you have a tacit acceptance of > >> the fact that the developer community that was presumably doing things > >> according to the "Apache Way" (I mean Struts here) did not innovate, > >> and ended up having to bring in a codebase not developed at ASF > >> (Webwork) in order to have something reasonably up-to-date to offer. > >> > >> Yet you will still hear this people saying: "The Apache Way" is X and > >> pointing you to pages about this like they were scripture. > >> > >> So, my pressing them about the Struts 1.x codebase and that it > >> stagnated occurred in that context. > >> > >> You really have to understand the context in which conversations > >> developed. > >> > >>> > >>> By Jon's "logic" Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME > >>> code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to > >>> why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to > >>> Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT > >>> based OS X. > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, in both cases, there was a clear migration path offered to users > >> and I think there was far more clarity about what was going on. > >> > >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but before I brought this up, you didn't > >> really understand what was going on with this. So, at the very least, > >> the communication with users has been terrible. > >> > >> In any case, I am not "whining" that the superior technology (Webwork > >> in this case) is going to replace the inferior technology (Struts 1.x). > >> > >> That's not exactly my point. In terms of the overall open source > >> ecology, I have some real misgivings about a team that failed to > >> innovate imposing its culture and project management practices on the > >> community that really was able to innovate and be at the cutting edge. > >> This is problematic. > >> > >> Again, you have to understand the context of the discussion. > >> > >>> > >>> Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have > >>> moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, consider this. Step back and look at it: you could simply have > >> been using Struts 2.x for the last 9 months by using Webwork instead. > >> > >> So I think there's reason to look askance at what a great favor these > >> Struts guys have done for you. You've been using technology for the > >> last 9 months that the Struts developers themselves consider to be > >> inferior. > >> > >>> > >>> Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED > >>> by the inclusion of WebWorks, > >> > >> > >> > >> It's not an inclusion, Bart. The Webwork codebase is simply replacing > >> the Struts 1.x codebase that you have been building your stuff on top of. > >> > >>> where on earth is this mythical stagnation? The only thing here that > >>> seems stagnent to me are John's posts. They are just the same thing > >>> over and over and over and over and over ......... again. We get it > >>> Jon, we know what you think, it's just that not everyone agrees with > >>> you and no matter how many times you say the same thing everyone will > >>> NEVER agree with you! > >>> > >>> This topic is dead, it has been for weeks, can we now please do the > >>> honourable thing and bury it! > >> > >> > >> > >> The topic has been avoided basically. In any case, if you still think > >> this topic is not worth talking about and other think it, why do you > >> care if they talk about it? > >> > >> Jonathan Revusky > >> -- > >> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > >> > >>> > >>> Bart. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
