FYI (I included users-ironpython.com@lists.ironpython.com into CC list but GMAIL somehow ingored it, so I am posting my respond to Jason here)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: a p <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Apr 13, 2005 5:55 AM Subject: Re: IronPython License To: Jason Matusow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Jim Hugunin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jason: You already know everything you need to know from your blog and especially from IronPython mailing list. I am CC-ing my answer to this mailing list, because it is not a private communication we have here. Microsoft has (or had?) a wonderful opportunity to dramatically improve relationship with Open Source people by making IronPython a success and enable it to be integrated with Visual Studio. Jim has (or had?) a tremendous recognition and his willingless to join Microsoft created a lot of hope for the bright future. Instead you keep listening Microsoft lawyers and continue to try to destroy Open Source movement from within instead of embracing it. Let's see what people already said and you are pretending to ignore it: 1. Anonimous said: "Why not make it clear that Microsoft will not sue anyone using a derivative of this for violating its OWN patents?" 2. James Mastros said: "The license makes this software another piece in the increasingly one-sided game of MAD called patents. Take this scenario: I create a derived work from this, which I wish to sell support contracts on. Whoops, that's a derived work, Microsoft sues me for patent infringment, since the patent rights didn't transfer to derived works per clause 6. Even better, if it turns out that Microsoft folds the source for the bit of it that /I/ have patented back into the mainstream, I can't sue them; if I try I'm in violation of clause 5 and can no longer distribute my product. Doesn't seem like a very symmetric relationship to me; it sounds like one that is distinctly in the favor of Microsoft." 3. James Mastros said: "It does not give anyone the ability to offer support contracts, unless they have the ability to relicense (for which see below). Clause three of the license says it comes with none, and explicitly says that you can't remove that section (which is redundant as clause two of the license already says that)." 4. James Mastros said: "It does not give you the permission to relicense the code under less permissive terms. It's perfectly legal to take BSD'd code, modify it, and re-release it under the terms of the GPL, or some other similar license, so long as you do not remove "...the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer". This allows one to simplfy the legal mumbo-jumbo by distributing an entire bundle under one license." 5. Sriram Krishnan asked: "can IronPython code be used in a GPL-project?" Jason: where is Microsoft answer? Is it NO? 6. Terry L. Triplett asked for CPL: "I'd like to see IronPython continue to be distributable everywhere that CPython might be found that also happens to have a compliant CLR implementation." 7. Jonathan LaCour said: So, to review my pie-in-the-sky wishes to guarantee IronPython success: > 1. Switch to a similar, but respected license. > - Bonus points for picking the same license as mono. > 2. Ditch the gotdotnet forums. Make the mailing list "the way". > 3. Don't require a passport to file bugs. > 4. Have a public SVN or CVS repository. > 5. Be open to accepting external patches. > 6. Have at least one other "committer" (to help lighten the load on you). > - Bonus points if this person is outside Microsoft. > - Extra bonus points if this person is a respected Mono hacker. > > Items 1, 3, and 5 are non-negotiable to me. If you don't do these at least, I > guarantee that the project will stagnate, and something like Boo will become > more widely accepted (especially by Open Source types). > > Anyway. I don't want to criticize you too much, as I think IronPython is a > great > piece of work. I would just hate to see such a great opportunity be missed! > > and Andreas Kotes, Fred Dixon, Ryan Williams and a lot of other people agreed > with above! 8. Just make your license OSI certified, people saying it and you keep ingoring this request. 9. use sourceforge instead of gotdotnet; do not use PASSPORT! Jonathan LaCour said: "I think the Passport thing is probably a showstopper for many Open Source people. I am not going to argue the technical merits for this, but to many OSS people, Passport is considered some great evil." Look what Passport TOS said: "You must enter into a different legal agreement with Microsoft if you wish to offer the .NET Passport Services to users of your own application, Web site, or Web service. You may not use any software or hardware that reduces the number of users directly accessing or using the .NET Passport Services (sometimes called "multiplexing" or "pooling" software or hardware)." 10. Use mailing list, use public cvs/svn server as all non-microsoft open source people. 11. J. Merill said: "Here's a sentence from the FAQ concerning patents: [quote] This license grants you a patent license to use and distribute the Software under any Microsoft patent claims that read on the Software itself. [end quote]." 12. And more... but I hope you got my (really people's) point. Don't even think that you and your lawyers can outsmart entire mankind. Again: with IronPython your Microsoft has a unique opportunity but based on your blog and what you forcing Jum to do looks to me as your readiness to waste the opportunity. Go ahead with your plans... and I feel sorry for Jim. On 4/13/05, Jason Matusow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello AP - > > Thanks for your comment to my blog and to the IronPython mailing list. I am > sorry to hear that your attorneys have had a negative reaction to our > license. Would you be willing to share your company name and provide us with > some feedback on the license in terms of what was objectionable about it? > Our goal is simply to understand the objections so that we may improve our > process in the future. Each clause in the IronPython license is mirrored in > terms found in OSI-approved licenses. We recognized that there is more we > can do to improve our relationship with the OSI, but at this time our source > code releases are not generally done under the auspices of one of their > licenses. > > Your feedback is very welcome. If you have tough criticism for us in this > space please do not hold back. Our source licensing efforts are an ongoing > learning process and your input is highly valued. > > Thanks. > > Jason Matusow > Director, Shared Source > Microsoft _______________________________________________ users-ironpython.com mailing list users-ironpython.com@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
