Hi, I’m glad there’s so much thought into getting security right! But as a user of Kafka who doesn’t need Enterprise Security sort of features, I would ask whether doing such a large project built into Kafka is the appropriate use of developer time at this point in its lifecycle.
For example, even basic functionality like deleting topics or balancing partitions does not work reliably / correctly, or is harder than it needs to be. Kafka is a message broker and IMHO it would be nice if it fulfills that role well over adding such complicated and time-consuming features, which inevitably will introduce new bugs, new maintenance concerns, and split developer focus. Not trying to rain on the parade, just voicing my 2¢, Steven On Jun 6, 2014, at 11:15 AM, Todd Palino <tpal...@linkedin.com.INVALID> wrote: > Yes, I realized last night that I needed to be clearer in what I was > saying. Encryption should ABSOLUTELY not be handled server-side. I think > it¹s a good idea to enable use of it in the consumer/producer, but doing > it server side will not solve many use cases for needing encryption > because the server then has access to all the keys. You could say that > this eliminates the need for TLS, but TLS is pretty low-hanging fruit, and > there¹s definitely a need for encryption of the traffic across the network > even if you don¹t need at-rest encryption as well. > > And as you mentioned, something needs to be done about key management. > Storing information with the message about which key(s) was used is a good > idea, because it allows you to know when a producer has switched keys. > There are definitely some alternative solutions to that as well. But > storing the keys in the broker, Zookeeper, or other systems like that are > not. There needs to be a system used where the keys are only available to > the producers and consumers that need them, and they only get access to > the appropriate part of the key pair. Even as the guy running Kafka and > Zookeeper, I should not have access to the keys being used, and if data is > encrypted I should not be able to see the cleartext. > > And even if we decide not to put anything about at-rest encryption in the > consumer/producer clients directly, and leave it for an exercise above > that level (you have to pass the ciphertext as the message to the client), > I still think there is a good case for implementing a message envelope > that can store the information about which key was used, and other > pertinent metadata, and have the ability for special applications like > mirror maker to be able to preserve it across clusters. This still helps > to enable the use of encryption and other features (like auditing) even if > we decide it¹s too large a scope to fully implement. > > -Todd > > On 6/6/14, 10:51 AM, "Pradeep Gollakota" <pradeep...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm actually not convinced that encryption needs to be handled server side >> in Kafka. I think the best solution for encryption is to handle it >> producer/consumer side just like compression. This will offload key >> management to the users and we'll still be able to leverage the sendfile >> optimization for better performance. >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Rob Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On consideration, if we have 3 different access groups (1 for production >>> WRITE and 2 consumers) they all need to decode the same encryption and >>> so >>> all need the same public/private key....certs won't work, unless you >>> write >>> a CertAuthority to build multiple certs with the same keys. Better >>> seems >>> to not use certs and wrap the encryption specification with an ACL >>> capabilities for each group of access. >>> >>> >>> On Jun 6, 2014, at 11:43 AM, Rob Withers wrote: >>> >>> This is quite interesting to me and it is an excelent opportunity to >>>> promote a slightly different security scheme. Object-capabilities are >>>> perfect for online security and would use ACL style authentication to >>>> gain >>>> capabilities filtered to those allowed resources for allow actions >>>> (READ/WRITE/DELETE/LIST/SCAN). Erights.org has the quitenscential (??) >>>> object capabilities model and capnproto is impleemting this for C++. I >>>> have a java implementation at http://github.com/pauwau/pauwau but the >>>> master is broken. 0.2 works, basically. B asically a TLS connection >>>> with >>>> no certificate server, it is peer to peer. It has some advanced >>>> features, >>>> but the lining of capabilities with authorization so that you can only >>>> invoke correct services is extended to the secure user. >>>> >>>> Regarding non-repudiation, on disk, why not prepend a CRC? >>>> >>>> Regarding on-disk encryption, multiple users/groups may need to access, >>>> with different capabilities. Sounds like zookeeper needs to store a >>>> cert >>>> for each class of access so that a group member can access the >>>> decrypted >>>> data from disk. Use cert-based async decryption. The only isue is >>>> storing >>>> the private key in zookeeper. Perhaps some hash magic could be used. >>>> >>>> Thanks for kafka, >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> On Jun 5, 2014, at 3:01 PM, Jay Kreps wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Joe, >>>>> >>>>> I don't really understand the sections you added to the wiki. Can you >>>>> clarify them? >>>>> >>>>> Is non-repudiation what SASL would call integrity checks? If so don't >>>>> SSL >>>>> and and many of the SASL schemes already support this as well as >>>>> on-the-wire encryption? >>>>> >>>>> Or are you proposing an on-disk encryption scheme? Is this actually >>>>> needed? >>>>> Isn't a on-the-wire encryption when combined with mutual >>>>> authentication >>>>> and >>>>> permissions sufficient for most uses? >>>>> >>>>> On-disk encryption seems unnecessary because if an attacker can get >>>>> root >>>>> on >>>>> the kafka boxes it can potentially modify Kafka to do anything he or >>>>> she >>>>> wants with data. So this seems to break any security model. >>>>> >>>>> I understand the problem of a large organization not really having a >>>>> trusted network and wanting to secure data transfer and limit and >>>>> audit >>>>> data access. The uses for these other things I don't totally >>>>> understand. >>>>> >>>>> Also it would be worth understanding the state of other messaging and >>>>> storage systems (Hadoop, dbs, etc). What features do they support. I >>>>> think >>>>> there is a sense in which you don't have to run faster than the bear, >>>>> but >>>>> only faster then your friends. :-) >>>>> >>>>> -Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Joe Stein <joe.st...@stealth.ly> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I like the idea of working on the spec and prioritizing. I will >>>>> update >>>>>> the >>>>>> wiki. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Joestein >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Jay Kreps <jay.kr...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hey Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for kicking this discussion off! I totally agree that for >>>>>>> >>>>>> something >>>>>> >>>>>>> that acts as a central message broker security is critical feature. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>> think >>>>>> >>>>>>> a number of people have been interested in this topic and several >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> have put effort into special purpose security efforts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since most the LinkedIn folks are working on the consumer right now >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>> think >>>>>> >>>>>>> this would be a great project for any other interested people to >>>>>>> take >>>>>>> on. >>>>>>> There are some challenges in doing these things distributed but it >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> >>>>>> also >>>>>> >>>>>>> be a lot of fun. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think a good first step would be to get a written plan we can all >>>>>>> agree >>>>>>> on for how things should work. Then we can break things down into >>>>>>> chunks >>>>>>> that can be done independently while still aiming at a good end >>>>>>> state. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had tried to write up some notes that summarized at least the >>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>>>>>> had had on security: >>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/Security >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What do you think of that? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One assumption I had (which may be incorrect) is that although we >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> >>>>>> all >>>>>> >>>>>>> the things in your list, the two most pressing would be >>>>>>> authentication >>>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> authorization, and that was all that write up covered. You have more >>>>>>> experience in this domain, so I wonder how you would prioritize? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Those notes are really sketchy, so I think the first goal I would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> would be to get to a real spec we can all agree on and discuss. A >>>>>>> lot >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the security stuff has a high human interaction element and needs to >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> in pretty different domains and different companies so getting this >>>>>>> kind >>>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>> review is important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Joe Stein <joe.st...@stealth.ly> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi,I wanted to re-ignite the discussion around Apache Kafka >>>>>>> Security. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is a huge bottleneck (non-starter in some cases) for a lot of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (due to regulatory, compliance and other requirements). Below are >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> suggestions for specific changes in Kafka to accommodate security >>>>>>>> requirements. This comes from what folks are doing "in the wild" >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> workaround and implement security with Kafka as it is today and >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> what I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> have discovered from organizations about their blockers. It also >>>>>>>> picks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> up >>>>>> >>>>>>> from the wiki (which I should have time to update later in the week >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> based >>>>>> >>>>>>> on the below and feedback from the thread). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1) Transport Layer Security (i.e. SSL) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This also includes client authentication in addition to in-transit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> security >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> layer. This work has been picked up here >>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KAFKA-1477 and do appreciate >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> thoughts, comments, feedback, tomatoes, whatever for this patch. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> is a >>>>>> >>>>>>> pickup from the fork of the work first done here >>>>>>>> https://github.com/relango/kafka/tree/kafka_security. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2) Data encryption at rest. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is very important and something that can be facilitated within >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> wire protocol. It requires an additional map data structure for the >>>>>>>> "encrypted [data encryption key]". With this map (either in your >>>>>>>> object >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in the wire protocol) you can store the dynamically generated >>>>>>>> symmetric >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> key >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (for each message) and then encrypt the data using that dynamically >>>>>>>> generated key. You then encrypt the encryption key using each >>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> key >>>>>> >>>>>>> for whom is expected to be able to decrypt the encryption key to >>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> decrypt the message. For each public key encrypted symmetric key >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> (which >>>>>> >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> now the "encrypted [data encryption key]" along with which public >>>>>>>> key >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>> >>>>>>> was encrypted with for (so a map of [publicKey] = >>>>>>>> encryptedDataEncryptionKey) as a chain. Other patterns can be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> implemented >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but this is a pretty standard digital enveloping [0] pattern with >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>> field added. Other patterns should be able to use that field to-do >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> their >>>>>> >>>>>>> implementation too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 3) Non-repudiation and long term non-repudiation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Non-repudiation is proving data hasn't changed. This is often (if >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> always) done with x509 public certificates (chained to a >>>>>>>> certificate >>>>>>>> authority). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Long term non-repudiation is what happens when the certificates of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> certificate authority are expired (or revoked) and everything ever >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> signed >>>>>> >>>>>>> (ever) with that certificate's public key then becomes "no longer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> provable >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> as ever being authentic". That is where RFC3126 [1] and RFC3161 >>>>>>>> [2] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> come >>>>>> >>>>>>> in (or worm drives [hardware], etc). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For either (or both) of these it is an operation of the encryptor >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> sign/hash the data (with or without third party trusted timestap of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> signing event) and encrypt that with their own private key and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> distribute >>>>>> >>>>>>> the results (before and after encrypting if required) along with >>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> public key. This structure is a bit more complex but feasible, it >>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> map >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of digital signature formats and the chain of dig sig attestations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> The >>>>>> >>>>>>> map's key being the method (i.e. CRC32, PKCS7 [3], XmlDigSig [4]) >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a list of map where that key is "purpose" of signature (what your >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> attesting >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> too). As a sibling field to the list another field for "the >>>>>>>> attester" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>>> bytes (e.g. their PKCS12 [5] for the map of PKCS7 signatures). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 4) Authorization >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We should have a policy of "404" for data, topics, partitions >>>>>>>> (etc) if >>>>>>>> authenticated connections do not have access. In "secure mode" any >>>>>>>> non >>>>>>>> authenticated connections should get a "404" type message on >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> everything. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Knowing "something is there" is a security risk in many uses cases. >>>>>>> So >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> you don't have access you don't even see it. Baking "that" into >>>>>>>> Kafka >>>>>>>> along with some interface for entitlement (access management) >>>>>>>> systems >>>>>>>> (pretty standard) is all that I think needs to be done to the core >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I want to tackle item later in the year after summer after the >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> three >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> are complete. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I look forward to thoughts on this and anyone else interested in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> working >>>>>> >>>>>>> with us on these items. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [0] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.emc.com/emc-plus/rsa-labs/standards- >>>>>> initiatives/what-is-a-digital-envelope.htm >>>>>> >>>>>>> [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3126 >>>>>>>> [2] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3161 >>>>>>>> [3] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.emc.com/emc-plus/rsa-labs/standards-initiatives/pkcs-7- >>>>>> cryptographic-message-syntax-standar.htm >>>>>> >>>>>>> [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_Signature >>>>>>>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKCS_12 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> /******************************************* >>>>>>>> Joe Stein >>>>>>>> Founder, Principal Consultant >>>>>>>> Big Data Open Source Security LLC >>>>>>>> http://www.stealth.ly >>>>>>>> Twitter: @allthingshadoop <http://www.twitter.com/allthingshadoop> >>>>>>>> ********************************************/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >
