-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 In my eyes, gosh is a "readable as a text file" + converter, markdown only the former. The converter partly or completely defines any format it converts to. Therefore gosh ought to go at least partly lower level of abstraction than MD; and its description as formally more powerful is approriate (i.e. one can see how gosh could contain markdown but markdown coule not contain gosh's converter part).
Now, to self-quote: > > > But is format the real point of Gosh? In my view structurally Gosh sits > > > or should sit below any document file format. There are no .gosh files, > > > only a syntax for txt-files, and that syntax has the purpose of (1) being > > > readable universally (2) acting as a "middle-man" of the conversation job. gosh format, markdown and other "readable as a text file" formats can do these jobs; I make no commentary which should do it because to me it seem the same. But there should exist a simple command line tool that converts between document files (for example also pdf, microsoft / google doc files) that uses ONE of the "readable as a text file" as a "middle-man." Without such tool, there would be lots of converters, some written from A to C when from A to B & B to C already exist; these might be named differently; and use different command syntax. With such a tool, bloat is reduced significantly. One can reasonably point now that such tools do exist; but were gosh removed there would none would built-in with Genode. Neither the original proposal to just move to markdown nor your comment make sense structutrally; but you are right that everything is of course maintainer's decision. On Wednesday, July 24th, 2024 at 19:18, Spencer via users <[email protected]> wrote: > I feel like this misses the point somewhat- > Markdown is also aiming for the 'readable as a text file' and really is a > very similar technology to Gosh. Also, whether they are .gosh files, or text > files that happen to implement gosh doesn't matter much, just as .md doesn't > matter really (unless the viewer has special case rendering for one or the > other) > > Imo its really, is it worth the hassle to switch from something already known > and liked (gosh) to the very similar competing format (markdown) to gain > compatibility with the surrounding ecosystem. > > I can't say for the dev team if its worth it for them either way, but I think > it's misguided to say that gosh is inherently more powerful or something. > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at 9:19 AM, Jana Hirsch via users wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > I first saw the discussion on this I thought "oh no, hopefully someone > > doesn't try to conform us into MD." There is a taller stack of deeper > > problems with the reasoning of the humans who do what you did, but I will > > restrain from writing an unpragmatic response, focusing on concrete details. > > > > You say: > > > > "I propose that Genode adopts Markdown instead of GOSH. > > > > Markdown has become the standard format for nearly all Open Source projects > > and Git hosting sites. GitHub, GitLab, Gitea and Codeberg/Forgejo all use > > Markdown, none support GOSH format. > > > > I can read Markdown in GitHub repositories using my Android phone with the > > GitHub app. I cannot read GOSH files on a phone or tablet. This makes it > > harder to read correctly rendered GOSH files compared to Markdown. If I > > want to read a rendered GOSH document(not in plain text), I must clone the > > Genode & GOSH repo, install GOSH & TCL/TK, export the GOSH files to HTML or > > LaTeX from the command line, then view in PDF or HTML viewer. This is not > > simple compared to Markdown which is rendered natively on almost any > > device." > > > > https://github.com/nfeske/gosh says: > > > > "GOSH is a tool for converting plain ASCII text to LaTeX and other document > > formats. Its main design criteria was to use a syntax that is perfectly > > readable as plain ASCII text and the support of different target formats. > > The source files of GOSH have a very simple syntax that is similar to the > > usenet style. Everyone, who ever wrote a mail using an plain ASCII editor > > will be able to write GOSH texts. > > ; Actually, the file you are reading right now is a GOSH text file. > > GOSH supports multiple target formats by different backends, which are > > available as separate files. By now, there exists the built-in LaTeX > > backend, > > a simple HTML backend and a man-page backend." > > > > The Gosh **format** is more universal than markdown, because one can read > > it on any device that displays txt-file. Lack of rendering does not prevent > > one from reading the files. Therefore your premise is certainly unsound. > > > > But is format the real point of Gosh? In my view structurally Gosh sits or > > should sit below any document file format. There are no .gosh files, only a > > syntax for txt-files, and that syntax has the purpose of (1) being readable > > universally (2) acting as a "middle-man" of the conversation job. > > > > The second one is a good idea: for new formats, the problem will always be > > how to convert this to Gosh (1 problem) instead of how to convert this to > > others (~ n problems). Also, it improves security, because we can know / > > can know that conversions should not be able to do anything more than what > > Gosh can. > > > > Thus, why not add (bi-directional) support for markdown to Gosh? I feel > > like you could then propose this again for the GitHub. > > > > On Wednesday, July 24th, 2024 at 00:47, Jack Curran <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Here is my corresponding GitHub issue to track the progress, discussions > > > or changes/commits made in regards to this proposal: > > > https://github.com/genodelabs/genode/issues/5303 > > > > > > I propose that Genode adopts Markdown instead of GOSH. > > > > > > Markdown has become the standard format for nearly all Open Source > > > projects and Git hosting sites. GitHub, GitLab, Gitea and > > > Codeberg/Forgejo all use Markdown, none support GOSH format. > > > > > > I can read Markdown in GitHub repositories using my Android phone with > > > the GitHub app. I cannot read GOSH files on a phone or tablet. This makes > > > it harder to read correctly rendered GOSH files compared to Markdown. If > > > I want to read a rendered GOSH document(not in plain text), I must clone > > > the Genode & GOSH repo, install GOSH & TCL/TK, export the GOSH files to > > > HTML or LaTeX from the command line, then view in PDF or HTML viewer. > > > This is not simple compared to Markdown which is rendered natively on > > > almost any device. > > > > > > FOSS is a collaborative community. To make an open source project > > > successful, It is important to use common formats and tools so the > > > community can collaborate easily. The higher the barrier to entry, the > > > less likely it is for people to bother contributing. > > > > > > Switching to Markdown does not lose the benefits of LaTeX. The Git > > > hosting sites as listed above, support inline LaTeX rendering within > > > Markdown documents for mathematical expressions and diagrams. Markdown is > > > used on these Git hosting sites for writing documentation, wiki, > > > comments, issues, README, blogs and web pages etc. > > > > > > Having an appealing looking GitHub repository is important as it could be > > > the first time a user encounters the project, thus setting their first > > > impressions. If using GOSH, which isn't rendered correctly, they may not > > > decide to look further into the project as it looks unappealing. Most > > > users won't try to learn or use GOSH because it is not a portable skill > > > or format outside of the Genode projects. > > > > > > I would be happy to contribute by working on converting GOSH files to > > > Markdown format. I have already converted all 9 README files of the 9 > > > public Genodelabs GitHub repositories to Markdown. I could continue doing > > > this. However I don't want to waste my time doing something that wouldn't > > > be accepted by the Genode project. > > > > > > There is an automatic way to convert all the GOSH documents to Markdown. > > > > > > First, export GOSH documents to HTML or LaTeX. Then use a HTML or LaTeX > > > to Markdown converter, then it will be automatically written to native > > > Markdown. Thus saving manual labour. > > > > > > These tools can be used to convert from HTML to Markdown format > > > automatically: > > > > > > https://github.com/jgm/pandoc (This one can convert from LaTeX or HTML to > > > Markdown) > > > https://github.com/showdownjs/showdown > > > https://github.com/mixmark-io/turndown > > > _______________________________________________ > > > users mailing list -- [email protected] > > > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > > Archived at > > > https://lists.genode.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/U4Z7OCTPB5C3AHPWONHBEOXAMHBT2ITA/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: ProtonMail > > > > wsFzBAEBCAAnBYJmoQ1oCZCitIn/WOqZFhYhBGE5v9meIGIfaJ2mBqK0if9Y > > 6pkWAAC9uxAAum9sUDzVrNT8R0L4Hr5PmpRoC23nTpXrk7/uMssAfVgdPzMh > > 9n61DzTpslnRYLgY/nCJgBof0jdYRUZvJQg/QiCszgiQZsnYBOae5iDnxdvp > > Vcm1E1wj8uj7g+nKpVhi2J8JlAYqywP5zSIeuBr9n4cjFR3CMnZiaFM7ijPA > > cKOrN2BdVHVpwM4n+si6iy9aF0iFsQcjiZBGNFwZVnpZ3ucpdi82VsbyBeau > > Z79+SBYmE2+eN7Rt4wqmrj5Xtvb9rEsjyofqHJR/WVb49g++teAoSik/jzjc > > aw0bJ9J2zYfB0SLUIobuyi2LXLjedyH6RLYx4bxXG+noxI2MqKbqAuvmkdgd > > hQ9XW4JRes4glwF/bmRphVr2uLe1nhKQCNZUr3Vxmw09mEJMiTHlJhIsHFyS > > NHEebYj7woK0iJWpeLd7FrXjBItNPF0YheRNnKjj5lc/BGI++PGGiv4dRJ7r > > 0/aZz/Exha5dYzl446jeKx4W8jVm44AFxG5q6sbTUJVrvi1rcPMiO5eBHxo7 > > Rlf6699vwRMqehqpaR/yMw4xNLTept5lzgP+6FBDfTqjVcwbK/IHitzemilO > > I3n7vkQ+jibql68B2WNgYV/1244E+vFB1GkSAVvjjmdfAd6N+OpTlX3Y9ACy > > G6T3T/aHWOogwdKLKwkgxbHNsOZR1QUjVdA= > > =8yJM > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > users mailing list -- [email protected] > > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > Archived at > > https://lists.genode.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/PQPEHC4WXVPTK5JWKW5SEUDL3PMBG2KE/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wsFzBAEBCAAnBYJmocYVCZCitIn/WOqZFhYhBGE5v9meIGIfaJ2mBqK0if9Y 6pkWAABp4g//RlP0ivsTCijl2U5p+f19LqeyLKwHBZs4ByPkX3FU1sRLNEVZ wkjVWA5phbaMMQ6OAKg5sS7UGch/RUZ+Gtf6OgLWYkn4Nvo0MYOolZDlffTw +0uzAR2op5QUjIQpRyiaTZoW/fAo9EYMQNyKx1ZEdwO+1zQFzA+U2ERsS1v6 pL+arpupxM+Zqu9Y2/1t43qGf5goHJsNcxvqSrcDcpETaNCF14rNPv5+KdVk 3Fmy7bYrk3A/LPiUYsxkZNynH7W1ci/AA3OQWR+7k3lb6e8L1S2j+wgpmCcf qnp+ci7drZq9KP6IOsYyMn5VXgXPe2pXGyT3wQdHjXCTq+dcU5T55FHNwkun BobhVbVKo2JNROLZ7nE6dvmLwRtmP9JKvXI2AZUZAWyMKYzQsxysuPL4ojTM miKOwumTJNzzlSGtxlmSXu9y1lvRxMVz1frOqHgfd56NlPlilCDW/KSqa1hF vg6LgFXPraiyQ6ujpZ8Ve4tgZ1w8RRu48Yf2clmZCxLyMyJq3d2p3Zofg6uu RYApJmJXluTjsUjqNvI9lMmdZ88VtFfQxeoXqCGoSPOMupW5J8QK2s2CnZtA 1xKobTBvxuEZfGcvo85ScgJDUX9g2kRqUIYOaUwJ0CKP4CotaloyUNbn4pSM Qg1h6dr4yS3GtiVVmybJuC6Pi9dbYTPhP08= =kcP7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] Archived at https://lists.genode.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/TNEELMHDH5PYNRKFZA3RQR42DPNEGFQK/
