Hi Miroslav, > On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda <miroslav.gala...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, let me enter into this conversion. > Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics (or > accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have > url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name used > in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from > xwiki community till today. > > I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating > url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of the > page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably page > name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some > modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process. The > modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit > event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with the > one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this javascript > based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/. > I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ and > Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation. > > It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so that > everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It is > also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about > entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url look > ugly.
That looks very nice! One way forward I could think about: * We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string. We introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to use it and to display the URL. * You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make available on extensions.xwiki.org for users to install * We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then an option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this could be implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki (possibly with an Admin setting). WDYT? Thanks -Vincent > > Thank you > > Best regards > Miroslav Galajda > > On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> wrote: > >> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea < >> mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> >> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Caty, >>>> >>>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <vali...@gmail.com >>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Let's see what variants we have: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead. >>>>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name and >>>>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", will >>>> not >>>>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still have >>>>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces. >>>>> >>>>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of "Name". >>>> For >>>>> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product for >>>> now, >>>> >>>> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the >> product >>>> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)? >>>> >>>>> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some >>>> translations) >>>>> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change >> the >>>>> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users will >>>>> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title). >>>>> >>>>> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and >> change >>>>> the title manually. >>>> >>>> This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page you’re >>>> offered the ability to change the title after you click Create. >>>> >>>>> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to >>>>> autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use >>>> case >>>>> you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom, >> since >>>>> you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and >>>> need >>>>> for explanations. >>>> >>>> This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) What >>>> we suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title. >>>> >>>> Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue to >>>> let the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s done >> in >>>> AWM. And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the >> URL >>>> (it would change the page name). >>>> >>>>> That's why we display these options just for advanced and >>>>> long-time users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept and I >>>> agree with Vishal that we’re now causing a very large number of pages to >>>> have %25 in their URLs by default which is quite bad… Of course someone >> can >>>> spend their time monitoring what users are doing and renaming pages >>>> thereafter or educate their users to do that but we’re not helping and >>>> we’re making it difficult. >>>> >>> >>> If your web site is not in English then you're forced to use special >>> characters like diacritics which makes it hard to avoid URL encoded >>> characters (the browser location bar displays the URL nicely but if you >>> copy the URL the result is not nice). >> >> Agreed. So I’d say it’s even more important to allow the user to be able >> to easily view and change the resulting URL when they’re not in English. >> >> Thanks >> -Vincent >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> >>>>> IMO what you are describing is advanced user behavior. Normal users >> don't >>>>> generally care about their URLs and SEO. >>>> >>>> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it) that a >>>> good number of our users care about the generated URLs. >>>> >>> >>>> Also I think that simple users may care about URL without being advanced >>>> users. Making them advanced users will expose them to a lot more >> complexity >>>> than they need to know. >>>> >>>>> But the beauty of XWiki is that >>>>> you can customize it locally to perfectly match your needs. >>>> >>>> That’s not exactly true (and it’s far from being easy, just check >>>> createinline.vm): It means overriding large portions of vm code and >> having >>>> to do manual merges whenever you upgrade. A major PITA. >>>> >>>>> Vincent mentioned something about AWM. I don't see much difference from >>>> the >>>>> Create Page. We generate the names from title here too. We display them >>>> in >>>>> the breadcrumb, but in a more simple way. Displaying the >>>> "localhost"/server >>>>> part is not simple user behavior. AWM is more complex. >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> >>>>> So I would not change anything on the product side, since I believe >> these >>>>> should be solved as custom changes for your instance. >>>>> We want to encourage users to use page titles (with spaces in them >> since >>>>> they are more readable and supported), while we are preserving the page >>>>> name behavior for advances users (but we don't enforce it). >>>> >>>> I don’t agree with this sentence: We definitely don’t want to encourage >>>> users to use titles in URLs. >>>> >>>>> If users made >>>>> mistakes they can always change the title or rename the page. >>>>> On the product side the only change I would like us to do is using the >>>> URL >>>>> naming, but this was debated in the past and dropped for Vincent's >>>> reasons. >>>> >>>> What reasons, I don’t remember a discussion about using URL name instead >>>> of page name? >>>> >>>> So our main disagreement is that I consider that favouring encoded >>>> characters in URLs is not a good thing while you think it’s not a large >>>> enough problem to do something about it. >>>> >>>> Would it make our UI too complex to use for simple users if we were >>>> showing a URL and the ability to change the last part of it? IMO what’s >>>> complex is when we have Page name and Page Title. But I don’t feel >> there’d >>>> be confusion between URL and Page title. >>>> >>>> What do others think? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> -Vincent >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Caty >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 22:51, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Vishal, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok, I misunderstood you in your first email. I understood the >> opposite. >>>>>> I thought you were complaining that have 2 notions (page name + page >>>> title) >>>>>> was confusing but it’s actually the opposite! What you find confusing >> is >>>>>> the fact that it’s not easy for your users to set both the page name >> and >>>>>> page titles! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It’s funny (or not :)) since this is exactly what we had in past >>>>>> versions of XWiki and we had several complaints that it was confusing >> to >>>>>> have the 2 notions and this is why he hid the page name only for >>>> advanced >>>>>> users. >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, if I remember well, what we were doing was to ask for the >> page >>>>>> name and we were setting the title to the same as the page name by >>>> default >>>>>> and then the user could edit the title before saving the page. >>>>>> >>>>>> We’ve now done the opposite (user deciding on the title and page name >>>>>> being derived from it) but leading to the issue you’re raising about >> URL >>>>>> SEO… >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> -Vincent >>>>>> >>>>>>> See below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 14:20, Vishal <thewikinote...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Vincent for your thorough reply.. >>>>>>>> You guessed it right. We intend to have clean and short urls for SEO >>>>>>>> reasons. >>>>>>>> Current scheme creates two problems: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1) The Page name is fetched automatically from the Title. Often the >>>>>> titles >>>>>>>> have spaces which translate as *percent characters *in url which >> makes >>>>>> it >>>>>>>> somewhat unclean :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indeed you’re right. By hiding the page name we’re now incitating to >>>>>> have longer URLs and encoded characters showing up in URLs which is >> not >>>>>> nice I agree. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe one solution is to do something similar to what we do in AWM, >>>> i.e. >>>>>> generate automatically the URL from the title entered by the user and >>>> show >>>>>> the resulting URL to the user and give the user the opportunity to >>>> change >>>>>> the URL. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> See http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Extension/ >>>>>> App%20Within%20Minutes%20Application/AppWithinMinutes-Step1.png >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2) Secondly, to have the shorter url, we use only the short forms of >>>>>>>> complete title. >>>>>>>> Ex. For title 'Pune University' we use name PU. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times! That was >> in a >>>>>> previous job where my company and KPIT Cummins were partners. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Otherwise in this hierarchy of pages, the url would be much longer. >>>>>>>> Ex. We have page 'Electronics and Telecommunications' branch under >>>> page >>>>>>>> 'Pune University'. We should not have such a long url. Instead here >> we >>>>>> need >>>>>>>> PU/ENTC or Pune-University/ENTC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To avoid all this, what we currently do: >>>>>>>> 1) On create page dialog, use PU as title.. This will create url as >>>> PU. >>>>>>>> If full name is used here as title, we need to use - instead of >> spaces >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> avoid percent characters in url. >>>>>>>> 2) While in edit mode, change the title back to Pune University. >>>> Remove >>>>>> any >>>>>>>> - characters to make title clean. >>>>>>>> This is where confusion creeps in. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If these two terms create confusion, why I need to show them both: >>>>>>>> I guess the *confusion is due to term Name*. It doesn't reflect >> actual >>>>>> usage >>>>>>>> of the term. URL or weblink or link or web address would be more apt >>>>>> terms >>>>>>>> to use to instead of Name. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regarding Page name vs Page URL. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A bit of history: The reason we used page name and not page URL >>>>>> originally is because what the user is creating is a document in the >>>>>> database and initially it was called Document Name. Since that was a >> bit >>>>>> confusing for users, we had decided to call it Page Name. It just >>>> happened >>>>>> that the URL used was directly derived from the document/page name. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In practice the 3 concepts could have different values: >>>>>>> * a value for the document’s name in the DB >>>>>>> * another value for the document’s title >>>>>>> * yet another value used in the URL. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We’ve had discussions so that we could let the user provide shorter >>>> URLs >>>>>> for pages in the future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now for the time being and since we don’t have this ATM, I think I >>>> agree >>>>>> with you that we could decide to display to the user the URL that will >>>> be >>>>>> generated (the encoded URL) and allow the user to change it. >> Internally >>>> the >>>>>> user would change the document name. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My users can differentiate between Title and URL. But the whole >>>>>> procedure we >>>>>>>> follow is certainly not understandable by all. And we definitely >> need >>>> to >>>>>>>> follow this whole long procedure, just to have short and clean urls. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, if you’re asking your users to care about the URLs that get >>>>>> generated, right now they need to be advanced users to be able to edit >>>> the >>>>>> page name in the Create Page UI (since changing the title afterwards >> is >>>> too >>>>>> cumbersome). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, by showing both fields at the first place itself, I would like >> to >>>>>>>> shorten the procedure and url length. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’m in agreement with you. Let’s see what others think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for this interesting discussion! >>>>>>> -Vincent >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> View this message in context: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble. >>>>>> com/Page-Title-and-Name-confusion-tp7603546p7603551.html >>>>>>>> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >>
