Ken, Would motorways be more likely to show distance signs then city streets? Most of the signs on our city streets don't give any measurements or distances. The only ones I encounter on my drive about are speed limit signs, and they just show a number, like SPEED LIMIT 35. Distance signs are only seen (rarely) on rural roads giving distances to the towns. The freeways however do have a lot of distance and speed limit signs, both public and private. Is this true in the UK too?
So no wonder Stephen is fixated with motorways. It is the only place he can see claim to see his imperial signs and get his imperial fix as imperial is rare everywhere else. I am becoming irritated with Stephen trying to personalize the debate and calling me by someone Else's name. Wouldn't it be so much easier for him to just prove what he claims, especially if someone is able to prove otherwise? Keep up the good work in keeping us informed with the reality of metric usage in the UK despite one person trying to paint a rosy picture of imperial usage which is not there. Jerry ________________________________ From: Ken Cooper <k_cooper1...@yahoo.com> To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu> Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2009 8:03:34 PM Subject: [USMA:43471] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. Where do I start!!!!!!! Stephen said "Nothing I have said below is untrue" Please provide proof of a UK parking sign that states "P 1 m" I've never seen one. They are not prescribed in the TSRGD, therefore they must have been specifically authorised by the Secretary of State. Oh, and even if they did exist, you wouldn't find one on a motorway. You cannot park on a motorway, so there are no parking signs. Stephen also said "Secondly - the UK motorways carry the most traffic" True. They carry the most traffic per mile (or kilometre). There's a damn sight more traffic on non-motorway roads though. My car spent a full 24 hours today off the motorway system. I'll lay odds that your car spent more time today off-motorway than on.. In fact, the vast majority of cars in the UK will have spent most of their time off the motorway system. Thats because these roads only constitite 1% of UK roads. They would have to be really busy to constitute a majority of UK traffic. So busy that they would be permenantly gridlocked. That's just not true, is it? Stephen said "Thirdly I could have mentioned other things - like the matrix signs that now default to miles and minutes for 'travel to' points" Yeah. Matrix signs that are being trialled on a small area of one or two motorways near Stephen's house. In response, I could mention motorway signs in Glasgow that give travel times in minutes without any mention whatsoever of imperial or metric distances. What does this prove? A few (as many as 20?, 30?) matrix signs mention imperial distances using "m" to mean miles? Is this Stephen's basis for claiming that "m means miles on UK roads" Finally, Stephen said "Incidentally - I notice that you've been banned from the 'other site' again." Yeah. For mentioning that "Stephen Humphreys" was posting my true name on this site. It's a bit rich that you complained to the mods on that site & had me suspended for doing the exact same thing that you have done here! Tell you what, Stephen, why don't you lay off the personal stuff & try to debate purely on Weights & Measures? I'm getting pretty bored with your attempts to personalise the debate. I'm sure others are too.. --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> wrote: From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> Subject: [USMA:43466] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 11:39 PM Nothing I have said below is untrue. Secondly - the UK motorways carry the most traffic. Thirdly I could have mentioned other things - like the matrix signs that now default to miles and minutes for 'travel to' points. Mainly because we are discussing the use of 'm' here (which is used precisely as I have claimed below) If anyone believes Lee Roberts claim that I have told lies / half truths / whatever then please post to me either publicly or privately. Incidentally - I notice that you've been banned from the 'other site' again. Both of you tend to get banned quite a bit. To be fair - your account with them has been 'suspended' (apparently they don't do 'bans') - with this comment "It's with great regret that Glenn and his aliases have been suspended again for two days due to abusive and personal posts" Needless to say the next thing you will hear is about bias on that site (despite that board letting him get away with murder - almost). ________________________________ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:46:46 -0800 From: k_cooper1...@yahoo.com Subject: [USMA:43453] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: usma@colostate.edu And here's a perfect example of how Stephen uses half truths to deceive. 1) He states "Motorway signs also show "Town name XX m" - eg "London 23 m"* Apart from the fact that the motorway network is a tiny part of the UK total road length (see below), he fails to state that the "London 23 m" signs are not currently prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions. Any sign in this form is an obsolete old sign & does not conform to current UK law (just like the old milestones or "20 cwt" signs you occasionally see) But that doesn't stop him claiming these signs are current. 2) He also states "There are signs that say "Services XX m" Again, this is not the full story, Signs in this form only appear on motorways. Has Stephen ever pointed out that there are only around 3500 km (2200 miles) of motorway in the entire UK? That's approximately 1% of the road network. 3) He also states "And there are park (A big "P") signs that have X m" This is untrue. These signs state "X miles". No abbreviation is used. 4) Finally, Stephen said "This is on top of the ones you remember (the 1 m and 1/2 m countdown signs). Sometimes those countdown signs might have 1/4 m or 1/3 m but the vast majority are as you state they are." Yes. You will see "m" as an abbreviation for miles on grade seperated junctions. That's what I said in the first place. Can I ask what you intended by your post Stephen? The only bit that wasn't untrue or misleading was when you agreed with my point on grade-seperated junctions. I also notice, Stephen, that a lot of your post related to motorway signage. I wonder why you didn't mention the following signs. Don't you pass them occasionally (like every 100 metres or so)? I do. http://www.cbrd.co.uk/indepth/mileagesigns/ - don't you love the ironic title of the webpage, seeing that it's all about kilometre signs? --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> wrote: From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> Subject: [USMA:43425] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:14 PM Carlton - Motorway signs also show "Town name XX m" - eg "London 23 m" Also there are signs that say "Services XX m" And there are park (A big "P") signs that have X m This is on top of the ones you remember (the 1 m and 1/2 m countdown signs). Sometimes those countdown signs might have 1/4 m or 1/3 m but the vast majority are as you state they are. ________________________________ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:05:44 -0800 From: k_cooper1...@yahoo.com Subject: [USMA:43421] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: usma@colostate.edu Carleton As John Frewen-Lord states, you will see imperial measurement used for the majority of UK roadsigns. Normally, official signs giving distances don't use an abbreviation for miles. A sign would say "York 10" rather than "York 10 m", York 10 mi" or "York 10 miles" You obviously spotted one of the "m means miles" signs. "m" is also used to mean metres on some UK road-signs. These signs are mainly confined to signs showing restricted heights or widths & are also accompanied by imperial measurements in feet/inches.. --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Carleton MacDonald <carlet...@comcast.net> wrote: From: Carleton MacDonald <carlet...@comcast.net> Subject: [USMA:43413] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 4:32 PM When I was in the UK in June 2005 our friend took us driving from Southsea to Stonehenge. On the motorway the distance to the next exit was noted on the sign as “1 m”. Funny, even though that looked metric, I didn’t see it all that close. Carleton From:owner-u...@colostate.edu [mailto:owner-u...@colostate.edu] On Behalf Of John Frewen-Lord Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:53 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:43410] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. My local Tesco in Grimsby weighs ONLY in metric units for trade purposes (at the deli and fish counters primarily). Yes, the customer-use weigh scales are dual marked, with metric as the primary (outer) scale, and imperial as the secondary (inner) scale. All our other local supermarkets (Morrisons, Sainsbury's, ASDA, Somerfield) only retail weigh products in metric, this is the law. Annoyingly, some counter staff insist on converting it to imperial for me (even when I have asked for it in metric), but that is sporadic. Also to confirm - all fuel, whether petrol (gasoline) and diesel at the pumps, or the fuel oil we buy for our heating system, is sold in liters ONLY. Even aircraft fuel is calibrated in liters (a friend of mine works at my local airport). I have NEVER seen automotive fuel in other than metric. Same for Canada - since conversion in 1978, all gasoline can be dispensed ONLY in liters. The UK is primarily metric (e.g. the laptop computer I am typing this out on is shown as weighing 3.5 kg, no imperial equivalent), and officially all government is metric, even though there is some backsliding. Only the road signage, and pints in the pub, are not metric. These are the sole areas that those who resist metric conversion are holding out on. ----- Original Message ----- From:Ken Cooper To:U.S. Metric Association Sent:Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:23 PM Subject:[USMA:43401] Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. As you suggest, Jerry, one individual on one website seems to believe that liquid fuel in the UK is dispensed in "air miles" rather than litres. I think that his views can safely be ignored. I can assure you that UK law still states that litres MUST be used whenever liquid fuels are sold by retail in the UK. My view of the law is backed up by my own experiences in filling my car at pumps in dozens of filling stations throughout the UK, and in passing hundreds of other filling stations with large roadside price displays marked solely with prices per litre. UK petrol pumps normally have 3 active displays at any one time. One tells the price per litre, one tells the number of litres dispensed and one tells the total price to pay. Some pumps omit the price per litre & a few omit the price to pay. In every case, however, there is a requirement that the pump shows the number of litres dispensed. I'm sure that other UK contributors to this site can confirm my findings. With regard to Tesco's supposed return to using imperial scales at their fish counter in their Loudwater store, I would point out that this information is provided by the same individual on the same website I mention above. This tine, he makes a claim that Tesco are using dual scales for trade purposes in this store. Unfortunately, he refuses to provide any meaningful detail about the scales, making it impossible to verify whether he is telling the truth or not. I've never been in the Loudwater Tesco, so I cannot comment on that particular store. However, during the last 12 months or so, I have visited Tesco stores in Dundee (4), Edinburgh (3), Glasgow (2), Helensburgh (2), Arbroath, Ayr, Budapest(non-UK!), Campbeltown, Dumbarton, Dublin(non-UK!), Inverness, Lochgilphead, London, Oban, Perth & Stirling. None of these stores use dual-marked weighing equipment for any trade purposes (a few have dual non-trade customer checkweighers in the F&V aisle). Each and every one of those stores had weighing and/or measuring equipment in use for trade. Without exception, the equipment indicated in metric units only. Again, I would ask other UK contributors to post their experiences in Tesco stores. I'm pretty sure that only one person will claim to have seen such a scale, yet will prove to be surprisingly reluctant (or perhaps unable) to provide any real proof that it exists. --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Jeremiah MacGregor <jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com> wrote: From: Jeremiah MacGregor <jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com> Subject: Re: [USMA:43385] Re: USC units spread to the UK - and no-one notices! To: k_cooper1...@yahoo.com, "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 1:48 AM Ken, I've heard a rumor recently that the UK no longer uses the liter for dispensing gasoline but has instead switched to a new unit called "air miles". Can you provide some further information on this? I also understand that some super markets are now re-introducing scales in pound units that are being used to weigh goods asked for by customers. I believe that a Tesco located in the town of Loudwater has already changed over. Can you provide some further information on this reversion? Jerry ________________________________ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. Try it Now! ________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail just got better. Find out more!
