----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maurizio Cimadamore" <maurizio.cimadam...@oracle.com>
> To: "daniel smith" <daniel.sm...@oracle.com>, "valhalla-spec-experts"
> <valhalla-spec-experts@openjdk.java.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 11:23:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Alternative to IdentityObject & ValueObject interfaces
> On 22/03/2022 23:56, Dan Smith wrote:
>> Other abstract classes and interfaces are fine being neither (thus supporting
>> both kinds of subclasses).
>
> I feel that for such a proposal to be really useful (but that's true for
> the interface-based approach as well IMHO), you need a way for the _use
> site_ to attach an identity vs. value annotation to types that can
> feature both polarities (Object, interfaces, value-compatible abstract
> classes).
>
> It's perfectly fine to have identity vs. non-identity as a declaration
> property, for the cases whether that works. E.g. an ArrayList instance
> will always have identity. An instance of a `value class Point` will
> always be identity-less. Using modifiers vs. marker interfaces here is
> mostly an isomorphic move (and I agree that adding modifiers has less
> impact w.r.t. compatibility).
>
> But it feels like both interfaces and decl-site modifiers fall short of
> having a consistent story for the "neither" case. I feel we'd like
> programmers to be able to say things like:
>
> ```
> class Foo {
> identity Object lock;
>
> void runAction(identity Runnable action) { ... }
> }
> ```
>
> So, I believe the modifier idea has better potential than marker
> interfaces, because it scales at the use site in ways that marker
> interfaces can't (unless we allow intersection types in declarations).
> But of course I get that adding a new use-site modifier (like `final`)
> is also not to be taken lightly; aside from grammar conundrums, as you
> say it will have to be tracked by the type system.
>
> Stepping back, you list 4 use cases:
>
>> - Dynamic detection
>>
>> - Subclass restriction
>>
>> - Variable types
>>
>> - Type variable bounds
> IMHO, they are not equally important. And once you give up on "variable
> types" (as explained above, I believe this use case is not adequately
> covered by any proposal I've seen), then there's a question of how much
> incremental value the other use cases add. Dynamic detection can be
> added cheaply, fine. I also think that, especially in the context of
> universal generics, we do need a way to say: "this type variable is
> legacy/identity only" - but that can also be done quite cheaply. IMHO,
> restricting subclasses doesn't buy much, if you then don't have an
> adequate way to restrict type declarations at the use sites (for those
> things that cannot be restricted at the declaration), so I'd be also
> tempted to leave that use case alone as YAGNI (by teaching developers
> that synchronizing on Object and interface types is wrong, as we've been
> already trying to do).
>
> P.S.
>
> While writing this, a question came up: let's say I have a generic class
> like this:
>
> ```
> class IdentityBox<identity T> { ... }
> ```
>
> Is IdentityBox<Runnable> a well-formed parameterized type? Based on your
> description I'm not sure: Runnable has the "neither" polarity, but T
> expects "identity". With marker interfaces this will just not work. With
> modifiers we could perhaps allow with unchecked warning?
>
> I think it's important that the above type remains legal: I'd expect
> users to mark their type-variables as "identity" in cases where they
> just can't migrate the class implementation to support universal type
> variables. But if that decision results in a source incompatible change
> (w.r.t. existing parameterizations such as IdentityBox<Runnable>), then
> it doesn't look like a great story migration-wise.
Yes !
The neither types (Object, interfaces, abstract classes) act as an eraser of
the identity|value bit if we do not support use site identity|value modifier,
something like IdentityBox<identity Runnable>. And given that there is already
existing codes in the wild that does not specify "identity" or "value" we need
a kind of unsafe conversion/unsafe warning between the new world with use site
type annotation and the old world with no type annotation.
As Brian said to Kevin, it's a problem very similar to the introduction of a
null type annotation, it will be painful.
>
> Maurizio
Rémi
