(i never said *you* were retarded :-)
> What is needed for this to happen is a standardized data format. Only if
> you have a standard format can this work. I've mentioned xFolk more than
> once to you because xFolk is what can take this to the next level where I
> can tag *any* page on the web on my own blog.
This is the problem. Not everyone is a blogger. Tags do not and should
not revolve around bloggers.
xFolk is still too complicated for anyone to use -- its really hard to
write by hand, tough to generate through automation, and even harder
to spider and aggregate. Besides, the spec is not settled yet so there
is no reason to adopt it at this point. It may see its day, but it is
not usable now. xFolk is simply a spec, but it is not a spec that is
in use, and that is what makes all the difference. Something easier
could come along and blow xFolk out of the water (Technorati-style
tags are way way easier, so for now that's my preference. Plus
Technorati considers the "Category" element in RSS as a tag too, so it
works with existing standards -- Hallelujah!).
> the information is *free*. Then you can talk about having a basis
> for innovation - collecting the data is no longer the issue. You can focus
> on Doing Cool Stuff.
What I envision is more of a tagging ping service. Not unlike blog
ping services. Something that lets you notify when tags are created,
what is tagged, who tagged it, where is it tagged, and what the tag
is. This is simple enough, built on existing protocols and could
enable new types of tools and services.
This is not too different from what Technorati is already doing,
except they aren't really providing their aggregated data back to the
community either, so their service isn't as open as you claim -- its
accessed through an API the same way Flickr and Delicious are.
At the end of the day, you do need to retain some kind of value in
your service otherwise there is no incentive to provide services.
This ecology of tools and services must also sustain an economy.
-Josh
> I'm still in control of my
> tags because they're on my own blog. Unlike Flickr, where Flickr is in
> control of my tags. With an adoption of xFolk you can't have a monopoly
> like Flickr. Any teenager with a computer can write a competing service
> because the information is *free*. Then you can talk about having a basis
> for innovation - collecting the data is no longer the issue. You can focus
> on Doing Cool Stuff.
On 8/4/05, Andreas Haugstrup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:00:12 +0200, Joshua Kinberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >> And that place should first and foremost be on your own blog. Brownie
> >> points to mefeedia for wanting to support technorati-style tagging.
> >
> > Sorry Andreas, this is retarded. Why can't your
> > viewers/readers/audience tag stuff too. Tags are not only for authors.
> > This is what makes tagging interesting. This is why Del.icio.us is so
> > freaking cool.
>
> I said "first and foremost", not "only". :o)
>
> I have to admit before I continue that my prior e-mail as vague as it was
> had as its primary goal to bait you into the conversation. I was hoping
> that you'd take offense. It's a rhetorical strategy because now I can
> write about how I really feel and at the same time present myself as some
> pseudo father figure (or in layman's terms: A know-it-all). But since you
> called me retarded I think we're even now. :o)
>
> Two warnings: I'm going to swear at least once, and I'm going to tell you
> that Flickr is evil.
>
> Technorati-style tagging is nice. And it's a really good start - you have
> to agree with me on that. The ability for an author to tag his own blog
> posts with keywords is powerful and shouldn't be belittled. However as you
> point out it's not the complete picture. The next step is to allow for a
> person to tag *any* URL.
>
> You hail delicious for doing that, and we can safely lump Flickr in the
> same group. They both allow for tagging of other people's stuff. But at
> the same time they break the first rule of not being an evil corporation.
> They compete on data submission. Never, ever compete on fucking data
> submission. Delicious is better than Flickr in this regard. I can tag any
> URL at delicious, but I still have to be a member. At Flickr I'm
> completely locked in - it's their whole business model. I have to be a
> member to tag content, and I have to be a member if I want my content
> tagged. And here's the kicker: If I don't pay up I'm only allowed X number
> of photos. Great, now I have to *pay* to be a part of the network. Fuck
> that.
>
> Information should be free. Corporations should not compete on who has the
> best data (because information should be free, damnit!). They should
> compete on what they do with the data.
>
> And *that's* why the tagging should happen on people's blogs and not under
> the control of some company. Peter might be open up his tag data today,
> but when some other entity buys mefeedia from him all those tags might
> disappear over night. They might not disappear to mefeedia customers, but
> to the world they're lost.
>
> Mefeedia is a closed system today, but Peter has promised to open up so
> that I can get my content tagged in mefeedia without being a member.
> Mefeedia reads my blog and reads my tags in it. *I'm* suddenly in control
> of my tags instead of mefeedia. That's a huge shift, and Peter should be
> applauded for it.
>
> What is needed for this to happen is a standardized data format. Only if
> you have a standard format can this work. I've mentioned xFolk more than
> once to you because xFolk is what can take this to the next level where I
> can tag *any* page on the web on my own blog. I'm still in control of my
> tags because they're on my own blog. Unlike Flickr, where Flickr is in
> control of my tags. With an adoption of xFolk you can't have a monopoly
> like Flickr. Any teenager with a computer can write a competing service
> because the information is *free*. Then you can talk about having a basis
> for innovation - collecting the data is no longer the issue. You can focus
> on Doing Cool Stuff.
>
> And then! We can start talking about useful tag islands. And I hope we'll
> see many of them. From Golfing tag engines to Greenpeace anyone can mine
> the data for whatever purpose they have. But don't fucking base your
> business model on the data collection.
>
> - Andreas
> --
> <URL:http://www.solitude.dk/>
> Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology.
>
>
>
>
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