Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:05:50
+0000 (GMT)
From: Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 'Strumming' Foscarini (and others) - even more agreement
To: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'd be interested to hear if
Rob used index alone or this sort of alternating thumb/finger strum (I'm not
quite sure from the recording). Interestingly it reminds me rather of what
lutenists call the 'thumb under' technique for running passages (used mostly
used up to the end of the 16thC) whereby the thumb plucks (down) followed by
the index (up) and perhaps this is how the technique came
about.....................
That's an interesting point. In a different context - in the Corrente on
p.60 in the first line there are passing notes following Chord M3 and G.
These are clearly !!! WHY
meant to be played as single notes. It is not possible to play those
following Chord G and hold the chord.
*****************************************************
RESPONSE
Re the very beginning: indeed all strummed: little finger which takes the 6
of the M3 chord squeezes back to the 5 and then again to to 6 , up stroke on
the following 3 automatically emphasises this note. In all this, as said
previously, I think it v important to distinguish between more full blooded
strumming (say when just alfabeto or mixed but with just full chords) and this
sort of situation where I'm using a much more gentle stroke. In fact on further
analysing what I'm doing is: using index on the opening upbeat (upstroke) then
thumb followed by index on the down stroke (down beat), index up from the
second course on the squeezed 5 (but still play the rest of the chord) , thumb
down on the returned 6 (but play full chord - possibly come off before first
course - but not vital - the effect remains), index up stroke on the 3 (but
keep rest of M3 chord - lovely passing dissonance) and finally on to the full
M3 chord on a downbeat.
****************************************************************
But he has marked them as up and down strokes. Would you use
finger, thumb, finger for the notes following M3 ...
and
thumb, finger, thumb for those following G.
Regarding the G chord passage later on the first line, I think there's no
real problem- for the open 4th, simply lift fingers 3 and 4 (previously
stopping course 4 and 5 at fret 3) , for the next 2 on the 4th, move finger 2
to course 4 and use finger 3 on course 3, then revert to the normal G fingering.
Elsewhere he tends to indicate that a group of notes like this should be
slurred but in the Passacaglio on p.78 there is a similar figure - at the
beginning of stave 5 following chord P where he hasn't put in any stroke marks
which suggests that you play them all with your thumb.
*****************************************
RESPONSE
The page 78 passac has some informative passages (also similar in other
pieces)which clearly show that if he wants plucking alone he's perfectly able
to show it in the tablature, For example 3rd line down after the +M3 chord
which is played with two full chord downbeats followed by single notes on their
own (no strum marks) with the first slurred.
***********************************
Has he really done this intentionally? I am a bit sceptical about that.
*****************************
RESPONSE
In short, I do indeed still think that he knew what he wanted and was trying,
within the confines of the notation, to indicate what he actually did
************************************
Monica
I
Martyn
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes - I think we are more or less in agreement. I used to think with
Bartolotti that you should always repeat the chord with the auxiliary note.
But I have been re-reading the instructions in the earliest books and suddenly
had this feeling that perhaps I got it wrong about Bartolotti as what he say is
a bit ambiguous!
Monica
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Monica Hall
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
Yes - I think we're reaching some sort of middle way. However, in the case we
were particularly discussing I still return to the strum sign which I think
makes all the difference - Rob shows well how it can be translated in practice
(even makes me want to return to F).
Incidentally, I gave the B example simply to show how general the practice was
(as I know you know) not because I'm still confusing the two..........
Martyn
Monica Hall wrote:
Well - we are talking about Foscarini not Bartolotti.
In his instructions at the beginning of Book 1 Bartolotti does say that you
should hold the chord in place whilst you play the intervening notes but it is
not entirely clear whether you should always repeat the chord with the passing
note. In some circumstances I think that you should, and in others perhaps not.
He quite clearly indicates notes which should be played as single notes - by
putting 1 or 2 dots beside them.
Foscarini is another matter. His Fourth rule reads as follows
Fourthly particular regard must be had when playing those numbers which are
placed beside the letter. These must be played singly; that is to say touching
neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the
effect of the ornaments will be felt and the parts will follow distinctly one
after the other; such is my intention. Which observation will be both in
general and especially in the Arie di Firenze Passegiate, Correnti Francese,
Toccate, Gagliarde, e Balletti. Otherwise if more or less numbers [than are
shown] are played it will succeed in awakening little pleasure in the listener.
This is to be observed even if the number is alone; that is to say only touch
that string and fret which the said number shows.
As I said, in the particular passage under discussion the single figures don't
follow an alfabeto chord but it seems to me that the same principle applies.
Otherwise the part writing is obscured.
However - as far as my specific query was concerned this isn't really relevant,
as whether or not you play them as single notes or in combination with the
preceding notes there are still only two notes in the strum...
As far as the single notes which Stuart was referring to it is fairly obvious
that these can't conveniently be played whilst the alfabeto chord is held and
Foscarini has in fact said fairly clearly that they shouldn't be.
But the general question as to whether you should should incorporate the
passing notes into the chords or play them as single notes seems to be a bit of
grey area. Perhaps it was left to the discretion of the player.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Monica Hall ; Stuart Walsh
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
Monica, why do you think that the single notes are not played as a chord with
any of the preceding note(s)? I realise this is your position but I still don't
understand why you hold it: as someone else has said, if F had wanted this
there's a perfectly clear way to intabulate it. As you know I disagree with
your view and find support in other tabs where just one note changes in a
strummed chord progression.
Numerous examples in other sources just one (from the real Bartolotti 1640 top
of page 19):
B,(B)1'/A3,(A)2,13/ etc, etc, etc.......................
Martyn
PS I do wish B's book 5 existed
Monica Hall wrote:
> I wonder if you've added at least one bar towards the end. I'm sure there
> is definitely something dodgy about line 8, penultimate bar to final bar
> on that line (bars 10-11 in Monica's transcription). I think there is a
> bar - or more - missing and you have unconsciously compensated for it.
You may be right - I haven't looked at that bit closely!
>
> Rob, while you have your guitar in one hand and the Edirol in the other,
> try playing line one, second half of bar 4. The single note (a) on the
> first course is marked with a strum sign. Can you physically play the
> preceding chord and add the a? And even if you could, does it sound
> remotely plausible as chord? And again the last two bars of line two,
> especially the penultimate bar. Can you strum them? Could you make a
> recording of a bit more of this piece?
All these notes are meant to be played as single notes. They are not
intended to be included in the chord.
>
> Finally , line 9, bar 4. how do you add a top g to a full barre Bb chord?
You don't - it's meant to be a G major chord - include the open 2nd and 3rd
courses and it modulates to C minor...(K3)
And the penultimate note of the penultimate bar: how do you add,
> physically, add an a to a C minor chord? Surely this must be single note
> (but it's got a strum sign).
Yes - it can only be a single note...
>
> I think Monica must be right in saying that some of Foscarini's strum
> signs aren't actually strum signs. And there are strum signs all over the
> place in Foscarini.
>
>
Hooray!
Monica
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 January 2008 16:40
>> To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Stuart Walsh'; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
>>
>> I've made a stab at interpreting this on the guitar:
>> www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm
>> I think this is what Martyn is getting at - please forgive me, Martyn, if
>> it
>> isn't. Obviously it is only an attempt after a couple of read-throughs,
>> and
>> I got a little lost, but the general idea is, I think, one being
>> forwarded
>> by Martyn. So apart from being slightly out of tune and hesitant in
>> parts,
>> is there anything wrong with the interpretation? I think it is a
>> reasonable
>> assumption of Foscarini's intentions - anyway, it is his fault for not
>> being
>> explicit!.
>>
>> Rob MacKillop
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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