Ooops! - me too
--- On Mon, 11/5/09, hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009, 2:59 PM
1. We (ie you and I) do not know if Chrysander did reproduce the
original notation: my guess is (like I think yours is) that he has. The
issue is not this but 2 below.
2. The point about seeing the original is, as already said, to see
wether any other piece in the MS has no instrument name for a top
obligatto instrumental line. If all such pieces are so identified in
the MS then we move a step closer to being able to say that the top
line is for guitar; if not then a step further away.
3. As mentioned in my first response, the duplicated bass line would be
for the guitar - not that uncommon to find two v similar ( or even
identical) bass lines in a MS. Indeed the suggestion that it might be
for theorbo (but why this and not, say organ or harp? - two rather more
Spanish instruments) also overlooks the two similar bass lines. But as
said, this isn't a problem.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 11/5/09, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata
Spagnuola
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009, 12:49 PM
> When you say 'seems' does this mean it is an accurate transcription
or
> may not be?
I mean that I have not checked every note of it but it looks as if he
has
reproduced the original notation and that you probably don't need to
see the
original ms......to know what the part consists of.
>
> And, more to the point, if you have a copy of the MS are there no
other
> pieces in which the top line instrumentation is not marked?.
I have a copy only of the manuscript of the Spanish Cantata.
>
> As already said, like you (and others) I'd like this to be for
guitar
> but because of problems (such as overlapping lines) think it right
to
> be cautious. A more critical analysis of the MS would help in
settling
> the question........
Well - for starters - why include the bass line if the obligato part is
for
flute or violin? The obligato part consists of treble and bass staves
which presumably means it is for an instrument capable of playing them.
This could of course be a lute of some description or a keyboard
instrument.
As I write I have just had this message from someone on
www.earlyguitar.ning.com
"There is a great article about this piece (it's in portuguese). Check:
[1]http://www.tesis.ufm.edu.gt/pdf/848.pdf
Apparently the writer makes a good case for it being for theorbo or
chitarrone or whatever you care to call it.
Which had crossed my mind ....it brings us back to the question of what
the
term "chitarra" might mean in the context.
Monica
>
> MH
> --- On Sun, 10/5/09, Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[5]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 10 May, 2009, 4:52 PM
>
> Well - I am not going to offer to scan the whole thing but I did
look
> at the Chrysander version and he seems to have reproduced the
> manuscript faithfully if you want to check.
>
> Monica
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
>
> To: [2]Monica Hall
>
> Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
>
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:35 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
>
>
> No - I don't think odd at all - the composr would simply be
pointing
> the exotic.
>
> No doubt like many, I would like to think this was for solo guitar
> (with prhps a bass instrument) but it's important to avoid wishful
> thinking clouding judgement. I'd still like to see what appears
> elsewhere in the MS before jumping to conclusions
>
> MH
> --- On Sun, 10/5/09, Monica Hall <[4][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5][7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 10 May, 2009, 4:26 PM
>
> Well - it would be rather odd to mention the guitar specifically if
it
> was only part of the continuo group rather than the obligato
> instrument. The whole point about the piece is that it is a kind
of
> pastiche in the Spanish style - both the music and the way in which
it
> is notated.
>
> Monica
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: [6]Martyn Hodgson
>
> To: [7]Monica Hall
>
> Cc: [8]Vihuelalist
>
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 8:10 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
>
>
> Indeed, hence why it's important to see the practice throughout
this
> MS. As already said, it may be that additional melodic instrumental
> parts are not identified.
>
> MH
> --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Monica Hall <[9][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[10][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[11][12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[12][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 4:33 PM
>
> The title written at the top of the first page of the manuscript is
> "Cantata
> Spagnuola a voce sola e chitarra.". The guitar is the obligato
> instrument.
> There is no mention of flute or violin.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[13][14]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: <[14][15]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Mjos & Larson"
> <[15][16]rockype...@earthlink.net>
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:04 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
> >
> >
> > Without having seen the original MS it's difficult to be sure
if
> > Chrysander's edition is wholly accurate, certainly his naming
the
> two
> > upper staves of the system as for guitar seems editorial (since
he
> > places the chittara in brackets). It would also be revealing to
see
> if
> > this MS usually identifies a particular instrument on the top
line
> or
> > if it was assumed (a violin, oboe or flute perhaps). Further,
if
> the
> > upper line is played an octave down (as you rightly suggest
more in
> the
> > period guitar tessitura) it crosses the bass line (eg bar 2).
> >
> > I suggest it more likely that the composer simply expected the
> guitar
> > to play along as continuo (hence second line down duplicating
the
> bass
> > stave) and that a violin, or flute or oboe played the melodic
upper
> > line. the bass then played by cello with/without keyboard.
> >
> > MH
> >
> > --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Mjos & Larson
<[16][17]rockype...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Mjos & Larson <[17][18]rockype...@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola
> > To: [18][19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 7:07 AM
> >
> > I have been thinking to ask this group for ideas and
suggestions on
> > approaching Haendel's "No se emendera jamas " (Cantata
Spagnuola a
> voce
> > sola e Chitarra) for some time.
> > The Chrysander edition is online at:
> > [1][19][20]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb0001
6889/ima
> ges/inde
> > x.html?id=00016889&fip=66.41.254.100&no=5&seite=44
> > Is it safe to assume it was written for a standard baroque
guitar
> in E?
> > I have no idea of the original source, but given the range of
the
> part
> > marked "Chitarra" I would think to play the melody down an
octave
> from
> > Chrysander's G-clef notation, which would take the melody from
the
> > fifth fret first string down to the second fret on the fourth
> course.
> > This strikes me as a bit low for playing a solo part above the
> > continuo.
> > The bass notes only seem just to be a continuo line to
harmonize.
> > How might members of the group have performed this, and with
what
> > instrumental forces? Theorbo continuo only, or harpsichord?
Bass
> viol
> > only?
> > Or do do we take the subtitle literally that it is only voice
and
> > guitar? Then we have a bit of a range problem with the written
bass
> > line and upper part (assuming my octave transposition of the
upper
> > voice).
> > Does someone have knowledge of the original notation to be able
to
> > comment on the faithfulness Chysander's edition? He claims it
is
> > faithful here:
> > [2][20][21]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb0001
6889/ima
> ges/inde
> > x.html?seite=7
> > -- R
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [3][21][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.ht
ml
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> >
> [22][23]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/im
ages/ind
> ex.html?id=00016889&fip=66.41.254.100&no=5&seite=44
> > 2.
> >
> [23][24]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/im
ages/ind
> ex.html?seite=7
> > 3.
[24][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
>
[26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 2.
[27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 3.
[28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 4.
[29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 5.
[30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 6.
>
[31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 7.
[32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 8.
[33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 9.
[34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 10.
[35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 11.
>
[36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 12.
[37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 13.
>
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 14.
[39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 15.
[40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.n
et
> 16.
[41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.n
et
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[42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.n
et
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du
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e
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e
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> 22.
>
[47]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/ind
ex.html?id=00016889&fip=66.41.254.100&no=5&seite=44
> 23.
>
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ex.html?seite=7
> 24. [49]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://www.tesis.ufm.edu.gt/pdf/848.pdf
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
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14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
20. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/ima
21. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/ima
22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
29. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
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48.
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49. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
