Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that
"..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E.......sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo", in the translation from your stringing article: "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass" which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Chris Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing." We just might have a bit of a choice.... However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings." Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > Random musings from a folksy perspective... Not scholarship, just a > love for the guitar in all its forms. > Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the > 12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- not > unlike the advice we get from Sanz about bordones -- I have to say that > nobody really worries about doubled octaves, nor which octave to pick > out when listening to him. When Lead Belly played a walking bass, is > was a BASS line, no doubt about it. The octave adds PRESENCE, but the > note is BASS. > Were the strings so different in the 17th C. that one could have so > much doubt about the *sound* or *register* of a note played on > bordones? If both strings were struck together equally (say in a > trill, or rasgueado, or even playing a single "note"), could it be so > ambiguous that the performer or listener would be in doubt as to the > intention or placement of the note in the overall scheme? I find that > hard to believe. And wouldn't the evolution from a double-strung to > single-strung six-string guitar indicate that the *hearing* was in the > bass, so dropping the higher octave was a natural step? (Yes, I'm > saying I hear bass in the bordon. Is that a cultural artifact, or a > physical norm?) At least we can say guitar manuscripts evolved to ask > for the added range in the bass. But the logic of re-entrant tuning > makes it unlikely to add on a redundant 6th course at E. Without > bordones taken as bass, why the 6th E? > So that brought me to the next question... We're talking about an age > where exquisite details were the order of the day. Why *wouldn't* > performers adjust their playing to emphasize one octave or another? > (And boy, did that stir up some responses!) To me, the most compelling > arguments against that were: > * Nobody talks about doing that on the road to virtuosity. Please > correct me if I'm wrong. But wouldn't you expect to find somebody > exclaiming about the octave precision of such-and-such a performer? Or > wouldn't you expect a book to mention this as a requirement for > delicate playing? Where are these statements? > * There's a certain pleasure to be had in letting the instrument speak > for itself, and not trying to wring out of it more than comes fairly > naturally. Certainly, there are passages for which I would never be > able to achieve such an exquisite, octave-selective touch -- so I can > at least pat myself on the back and just not worry about it. Whack the > string, and let it ring. > For me, the problem is fully summed up in Sanz's Fuga no 1. Without > bordones, I see no way to play it as written and still follow the > melodic development. With bordones, I see no way to avoid picking out > specific octaves. (I haven't tried it with French tuning yet -- please > correct me if that's the solution... But I doubt it's that simple.) > This curious piece seems to defy every approach. Some people suggested > an octave on the G string -- But even then I believe you would have to > choose octaves. And Sanz never mentioned an octave on the G. And > maybe the fact is, Sanz used bordones on some pieces, and he picked out > octaves. What other solution is there, short of changing the > fingering? A side note... If anybody can offer suggestions for this > piece, I'm all ears. > I've already gone on about grounding in the G as the lowest note. For > the majority of Sanz's pieces you can get a compelling result. My > experience as a raggedy old guitar player is that the right hand is far > more important than the left... One repeated note with an artful right > hand is more interesting than millions of notes with a dead right > hand. In that regard, I have to resort to stringing and interpretation > that yield compelling right-hand performances (to the degree that I'm > able). If I can't get it out of the piece with my current stringing, I > don't play it. > Honestly, I was compelled by Lex's video recordings. I guess I'd like > to hear equivalent recordings with the instrument strung all three > ways. Then I could perform some kind of laboratory analysis. But > prefer music outside of the lab. I'm willing to bet musicians strung > their instruments according to situation. A dance-hall gig called for > bordones... The lady's salon maybe not. I'm also willing to bet a > good player managed to overcome his current stringing to play pieces > that were "wrong" for that stringing. > cud > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 4:43:44 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > This is an afterthought to my previous message... > In the passage at bars 6-8 in the Gigue which Lex plays in the video > the first four notes are played on the 5th and 4th courses, the next > two are on the 3rd course, the next on the 4th course and the last on > the 3rd course. The notes on the 4th and 5th courses will be in octaves > but those on the 3rd in unison. What Lex seems to be trying to do is > to leave out the high octave strings to place the whole passage in the > lower octave. It doesn't seem to work very well. > Once you start to try and leave things out you run into a whole range > of problems. How do you decide which octave the notes belong to? My > view is that if you are using octave stringing you should accept > anomalies like this as part of the deal. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" > <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > To: "[2]michael.f...@notesinc.com" <[3]michael.f...@notesinc.com> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:10 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > > Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music > the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point > is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear > the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument > has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with > the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave > stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the > counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from > playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there > wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play > different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different > issues from the guitar. > > > > The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because > one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that > the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high > octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave > stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect > this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt > to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on > the thumb side of a course. > > > > Monica > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "[5]michael.f...@notesinc.com" > <[6]michael.f...@notesinc.com> > > To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" <[7]eisenha...@planet.nl>; "'Vihuelalist'" > <[8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > > > > > >> Dear List, > >> > >> At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel > octaves." If > >> parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" > and > >> become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The > parallel > >> octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are > between two > >> adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice > texture. > >> Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an > intervening > >> note in one of the voices. > >> > >> Sorry for the lecture. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> ________________________ > >> > >> Michael Fink > >> [9]michael.f...@notesinc.com > >> ________________________ > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > >> Of Lex Eisenhardt > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM > >> To: Vihuelalist > >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > >> > >> > >>> Today the > >>> vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not > have > >>> been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were > octave > >>> strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. > >> > >> But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the > 4th > >> course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. > >> The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in > your > >> mind. > >> The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent > indeed > >> (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string > tension, and > >> > >> even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but > I > >> happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the > first > >> place. > >> > >>> > >>> The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical > guitar. > >> > >> Some people seem to shiver at the idea... > >> > >> > >>> most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth > >>> course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in > which > >>> the upper part is more audible. > >> > >> For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the bass > becomes > >> brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the overtones > of the > >> two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of course > no > >> strings). > >> > >> > >>> In the Sarabande the bass line falls a > >>> 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I > comes > >>> out of nowhere! > >> > >> I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after all, > in this > >> funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style. > >> > >> > >>> Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds > >>> to me more prominent especially in odd places in the campanellas. > >> > >> Maybe it's not a paradox, since there are more notes on the 4th > course > >> involved. It seems to be generally accepted that the bourdon on the > 4th > >> course is needed with Bartolotti, so this happens when you play what > the > >> tablature says. > >> In all 5 clips there are only 2 campanela runs, by the way, they are > both in > >> > >> the prelude. The section high up the neck in the courante, for > instance, > >> could be misleading, it is just a 'regular' texture. > >> > >> > >>> But neither is there any evidence that Italians thought of the > guitar > >>> as having seven strings rather than five and that used the > separate > >>> strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as a matter > of > >>> course. > >> > >> Again, it is not so much a matter of using the separate strings > >> independently, but using your ears (and therefore also your hands) > in a more > >> > >> varied way. Or should we believe that the tablature obliges you to > always > >> play the two strings (the octave and the bourdon) in perfect > balance? (This > >> would then of course also apply for the 4th course bourdon) > >> > >> > >>> It is also unfair to suggest that other people play the music > >>> the way that they do because it is fashionable and that they > havent > >>> given careful thought to what they are doing. > >> > >> Maybe. All the heavyly syncopated afterbeat strumming (and > percussion) > >> doesn't sound very 17th century to me. Wouldn't it be on purpose, as > a > >> 'cross-over'? > >> > >> Lex > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 2. mailto:michael.f...@notesinc.com > 3. mailto:michael.f...@notesinc.com > 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. mailto:michael.f...@notesinc.com > 6. mailto:michael.f...@notesinc.com > 7. mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl > 8. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. mailto:michael.f...@notesinc.com > 10. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 11. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >
