I think that the statement by Pisador to tune the 4th course to match it's pair is scanty evidence to place a generalization that all vihuelas+ were tuned in unison. We simply do not have that answer.
There is evidence however, on the E.0748 vihuela now in Paris (also known as the Chambure vihuela), and that vihuela, at least at one time, was strung in octaves on courses 4,5, and 6. Dan Larson made some interesting observations, in which he made a high resolution digital photo of the bridge. When he put to image on a screen, quite enlarged, it was obvious that the grooves in the slots on the treble side of the slots, that they were thin, deep grooves, as opposed to fat grooves, indicating a thinner string (i.e., octave string) was used at some time. So, it is quite probably that at least one vihuela player used octave stringing at 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 08:53 AM 9/1/2010, Martin Shepherd wrote: >Thanks, Monica. So as far as the vihuela is concerned, we have >evidence for a unison 4th course but no evidence at all about the >5th and 6th courses? > >The surviving music for vihuela dates from a time when the lute was >commonly strung in octaves on courses 4-6, and from a string >technology point of view there is therefore every reason to suppose >that octaves were required. It seems to me that modern wound >strings have made it too easy for us to assume that unisons were the >norm for the vihuela. >As I said, the presence of octaves on the lute seems to have been no >barrier for those addicted to polyphonic intabulations, so the idea >that the vihuela repertoire is dominated by such pieces is no >argument in favour of unisons either. > >Best wishes, > >Martin > >Monica Hall wrote: >>The original article arguing for octave stringing was by Bill Hearn >>in LSA Quarterly, Aug. 1994. There was some correspondence >>between him and Donald Gill in LSA Quarterly Feb 1995, and May 1996. >> >>The other piece of evidence for unison stringing is from Bermudo >>who mentions that the 4-course guitar has octaves stringing in the >>4th course like the "vihuela de Flandres" and by inference, he >>suggests that the vihuela did not. >> >>Monica >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Shepherd" <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> >>To: "Lute List" <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Vihuelalist" >><vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:37 AM >>Subject: [VIHUELA] Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: >>Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt >> >> >>>The main piece of evidence for unison stringing on the lute in late 16th >>>century Italy is the statement (where? can anyone help? I think it's an >>>English source) that Fabrizio Dentice introduced it. And does Vincenzo >>>Galilei mention it? For what it's worth, Caravaggio's paintings seem to >>>show unisons. >>> >>>The assumption of unison stringing for the vihuela, on the other hand, >>>does seem to be just that (John Ward's 1955 PhD thesis), the only solid >>>piece of evidence being Pisador's tuning instructions which imply a unison >>>4th course. There is an interesting article in LSAQ some years ago called >>>something like "The shaky case for unison stringing on the vihuela" - >>>sorry I can't remember the author or the year. Again, can someone provide >>>the exact reference? >>> >>>Best wishes, >>> >>>Martin >>> >>>Martyn Hodgson wrote: >>>> Dear Jean-michel, >>>> Put a colon after 'octaves' as '......./*strung in octaves: outside >>>>Italy........*/' - I think you'll see what I meant.... I didn't think >>>>the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily misled. >>>>As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute in octave >>>>tuning. >>>> But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later >>>>16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was >>>>expected to be strung? I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as well >>>>as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the 1570s. Do >>>>you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem to have had >>>>octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli and Santino >>>>Garsi), so when did the change take place? [Martin, have you done >>>>anything on this?] >>>> MH >>>> >>>>--- On *Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot >>>>/<jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>/* wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: jean-michel Catherinot <jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> >>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos >>>> performed by Lex Eisenhardt >>>> To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List" >>>> <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd" >>>> <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>, "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >>>> Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03 >>>> >>>> Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no >>>> octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing >>>> without octaves on the lute! >>>> And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with >>>> plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the >>>> vihuela, no >>>> octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an >>>> ambiguous >>>> tuning chart in Pisador. So... >>>> --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson >>>> <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>> >>>> a ecrit : >>>> >>>> De: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>> >>>> Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos >>>> performed by Lex Eisenhardt >>>> A: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>, >>>> "Lute List" >>>> <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>, >>>> "Martin Shepherd" <mar...@luteshop.co.uk >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk>> >>>> Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34 >>>> >>>> And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the >>>> lute was >>>> always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque' lute >>>> (generally >>>> in Dm tuning); in Italy in the old tuning but still octaves >>>> on the >>>> basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that >>>> some of >>>> the >>>> French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest >>>> octave >>>> pair >>>> as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string >>>> being >>>> alone ...... The Lute-masters have taken away that great string >>>> because >>>> the sound of it is too big.....). In short they sacrificied the >>>> lower >>>> rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again >>>> evidence that >>>> we >>>> need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, >>>>to >>>> some >>>> modern thinking, a more logical specification was always >>>> what they >>>> aimed for. >>>> As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added >>>> basses >>>> was >>>> not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was >>>> also to >>>> free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard. >>>>Mace(1676) >>>> certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The >>>> LUTE made >>>> Easie' as making playing 'become Easie' (no need for such >>>> difficult >>>> left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very >>>> widely >>>> used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other >>>> 18th >>>> century lutenists. >>>> MH >>>> --- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd >>>> <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk>> >>>> wrote: >>>> From: Martin Shepherd <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk>> >>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex >>>> Eisenhardt >>>> To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>, >>>> "Lute List" >>>> <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>> >>>> Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46 >>>> Hi All, >>>> Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the >>>> lute list >>>> as >>>> it might be of interest there): >>>> For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with >>>> octaves >>>> on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves >>>>are >>>> ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists >>>> making >>>> intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just >>>> intabulated the >>>> voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave >>>> can be >>>> heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the >>>> skill of >>>> the >>>> player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too >>>> strong >>>> as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper >>>> partials >>>> to the sound of the gut basses. The re-entrant tuning of >>>> the guitar >>>> is >>>> another kettle of fish.... >>>> Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie >>>> of Lute >>>> Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though >>>> what he >>>> writes is perfectly clear. He says that octaves were used >>>> more in >>>> England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and >>>> quite a >>>> bit >>>> of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up >>>> to the >>>> 4th >>>> course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and >>>> anyone >>>> else >>>> active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, >>>> since he >>>> probably brought his Italian habits with him!). Oh and of >>>> course >>>> Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and >>>> although >>>> he >>>> borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously >>>> thought >>>> it was still common practice. >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Martin >>>> Monica Hall wrote: >>>> > Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque >>>>guitar >>>> music >>>> the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The >>>>other >>>> point >>>> is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one >>>> tends to >>>> hear >>>> the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the >>>> instrument >>>> has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses >>>>overlap >>>> with >>>> the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with >>>> octave >>>> stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the >>>> counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different >>>>from >>>> playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where >>>> there >>>> wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible >>>> to play >>>> different parts on different manuals but this raises quite >>>> different >>>> issues from the guitar. >>>> > >>>> > The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too >>>> because >>>> one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison >>>> stringing is >>>> that >>>> the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the >>>> high >>>> octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave >>>> stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the >>>> effect >>>> this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to >>>> adapt >>>> to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave >>>> string >>>> on the thumb side of a course. >>>> > >>>> > Monica >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> "[1][5]michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com>" >>>> <[2][6]michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com>> >>>> > To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" <[3][7]eisenha...@planet.nl >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl>>; >>>> "'Vihuelalist'" >>>> <[4][8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>> >>>> > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM >>>> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex >>>> Eisenhardt >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> Dear List, >>>> >> >>>> >> At this point I feel compelled to say something about >>>> "parallel >>>> octaves." If >>>> >> parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel >>>> octaves" >>>> and >>>> >> become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord >>>> stops). The >>>> parallel >>>> >> octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint >>>> class are >>>> between two >>>> >> adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice >>>> texture. >>>> >> Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but >>>> with an >>>> intervening >>>> >> note in one of the voices. >>>> >> >>>> >> Sorry for the lecture. >>>> >> >>>> >> Mike >>>> >> >>>> >> ________________________ >>>> >> >>>> >> Michael Fink >>>> >> [5][9]michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com> >>>> >> ________________________ >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: [6][10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> [mailto:[7][11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>] >>>> On Behalf >>>> >> Of Lex Eisenhardt >>>> >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM >>>> >> To: Vihuelalist >>>> >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex >>>> Eisenhardt >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> Today the >>>> >>> vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this >>>> may not >>>> have >>>> >>> been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th >>>>courses >>>> were >>>> octave >>>> >>> strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. >>>> >> >>>> >> But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes >>>> even on >>>> the >>>> 4th >>>> >> course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. >>>> >> The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the >>>> polyphony >>>> in >>>> your >>>> >> mind. >>>> >> The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be >>>> prominent >>>> indeed >>>> >> (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the >>>> string >>>> tension, and >>>> >> >>>> >> even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the >>>> bridge) >>>> but >>>> I >>>> >> happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring >>>> decibels in >>>> the >>>> first >>>> >> place. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the >>>> classical >>>> guitar. >>>> >> >>>> >> Some people seem to shiver at the idea... >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon >>>> on the >>>> fifth >>>> >>> course because all it is doing is creating parallel >>>> octaves in >>>> which >>>> >>> the upper part is more audible. >>>> >> >>>> >> For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others >>>>the >>>> bass >>>> becomes >>>> >> brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the >>>> overtones >>>> of the >>>> >> two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has >>>>of >>>> course >>>> no >>>> >> strings). >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> In the Sarabande the bass line falls a >>>> >>> 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big >>>> chord I >>>> comes >>>> >>> out of nowhere! >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music >>>> after >>>> all, >>>> in this >>>> >> funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds >>>> >>> to me more prominent especially in odd places in the >>>> campanellas. >>>> >> >>>> >> Maybe it's not a paradox, since there are more notes on >>>> the 4th >>>> course >>>> >> involved. It seems to be generally accepted that the >>>> bourdon on >>>> the >>>> 4th >>>> >> course is needed with Bartolotti, so this happens when >>>> you play >>>> what >>>> the >>>> >> tablature says. >>>> >> In all 5 clips there are only 2 campanela runs, by the >>>> way, they >>>> are >>>> both in >>>> >> >>>> >> the prelude. The section high up the neck in the >>>> courante, for >>>> instance, >>>> >> could be misleading, it is just a 'regular' texture. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> But neither is there any evidence that Italians >>>> thought of the >>>> guitar >>>> >>> as having seven strings rather than five and that >>>> used the >>>> separate >>>> >>> strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as >>>>a >>>> matter >>>> of >>>> >>> course. >>>> >> >>>> >> Again, it is not so much a matter of using the separate >>>> strings >>>> >> independently, but using your ears (and therefore also your >>>> hands) >>>> in a more >>>> >> >>>> >> varied way. Or should we believe that the tablature >>>> obliges you >>>> to >>>> always >>>> >> play the two strings (the octave and the bourdon) in perfect >>>> balance? (This >>>> >> would then of course also apply for the 4th course bourdon) >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> It is also unfair to suggest that other people play the >>>> music >>>> >>> the way that they do because it is fashionable and >>>> that they >>>> havent >>>> >>> given careful thought to what they are doing. >>>> >> >>>> >> Maybe. All the heavyly syncopated afterbeat strumming (and >>>> percussion) >>>> >> doesn't sound very 17th century to me. Wouldn't it be on >>>> purpose, >>>> as >>>> a >>>> >> 'cross-over'? >>>> >> >>>> >> Lex >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> >> >>>> [8][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- >>>> References >>>> 1. >>>> >>>>[13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc. >>>> com >>>> 2. >>>> >>>>[14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc. >>>> com >>>> 3. >>>> >>>>[15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl >>>> 4. >>>> >>>>[16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e >>>> du >>>> 5. >>>> >>>>[17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc. >>>> com >>>> 6. >>>> >>>>[18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth. >>>> edu >>>> 7. >>>> >>>>[19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth. >>>> edu >>>> 8. >>>> [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk> >>>> 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk> >>>> 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> 5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com> >>>> 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com> >>>> 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl >>>> <http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl> >>>> 8. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> 9. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com> >>>> 10. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> 11. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>><http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 13. >>>> >>>>http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> 14. >>>> >>>>http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> 15. >>>> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl >>>> 16. >>>> >>>>http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 17. >>>> >>>>http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com >>>> 18. >>>> >>>>http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 19. >>>> >>>>http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> >> > Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
