Dear Monica,
O death, where is thy sting?....
These emails, between Lex, you and me are increasingly suffering from
failure to read (or to digest) exactly what is being said: I don't
blame anyone of us in particular.
Most recently you have written that I said something when I thought I'd
gone out of the way to say quite the opposite! I precisely did not
say, vis a vis the example of Granata's harmony, that it was the same
as Marini's (as you've now taken it!): merely that it was a similar
type of passing dissonance that was used at the time. Indeed, I
particularly wanted to give a similar but not identical example of such
harmony to illustrate the more widespread use of such. This is what I
actually wrote: 'we ought not to think such passing dissonances are so
very unusual and there are, of course, numerous other short
harmonic sequences which provide similar effects which the Old Ones
(especially in this period) seemed to like' - I then went on to give
this new example.
And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj chord
over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve through the 43
cadence.
Sigh......
nevertheless, kind regards
yrs thfo
Martyn
--- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17
Dear Martyn,
>
> The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass
F
That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor 7th
chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very common
in this
repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are D F A C. C
is
the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is
immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing note
(and
it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The other
three
notes define the chord.
> However on the guitar, where common
> alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is
> obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in
the
> upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar
(ie an
> F major chord).
Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far
as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here.
> in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the
harmony
> over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit
more
> harmonic frisson.
I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part.
Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You
seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord - omitting
the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I would do
is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined to
omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no
problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th.
> So coming full circle to our original
> discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674
collection:
> page 10 second half of bar 13:
But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th chord
on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with
combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass.
> Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was
> accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very
pieces
> for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier
in
> this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever)
didn't
> therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622
> collection is beyond me
I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only played
alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional
alfabeto chords.
> Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather
more
> convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols
(tho'
> might have been played as such):
Well - yes I agree with that.
Rgds
Monica
> --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early
17th
> century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18
>
> Dear Martyn
> > It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held
over a
> G
> > which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary
passing
> > dissonance which is then resolved.
> But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in
the
> voice part
> is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D
minor
> chord -
> F A D. If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still
> singing
> D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th
> chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C.
> The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely
- in
> fact
> it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it
rather
> than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony
> with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even
think of
> playing an F major chord there?
> The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord
can
> also belong to
> the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me
> inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which
> conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are
> completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of the
> problem.
> > I'm slowly losing the will to live .......
> It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical
example
> and an instrument to hand.
> Regards
> Monica
> > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in
early
> 17th
> > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40
> >
> > > Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong
and
> are
> > > imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier
style.
> > Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the perfect
> solution
> > for
> > me at least.
> > On F you play iib7
> > On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part are
the
> the
> > dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the 7th
and
> the
> > 4th are
> > prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the
> cadence.
> > Not being a continuo player these solutions are not immediatly
> obvious
> > to me
> > and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th
century I
> > don't
> > know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the
> > accomapniment.
> > O happy day - the sun is shining.
> > Rgds
> > Monica
> > > >> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and
bass)
> were
> > > later
> > > >> added.
> > > I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were
created
> out
> > of
> > > the
> > > blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing
well
> > defined
> > > alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis
of
> some
> > of
> > > the
> > > songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is
that
> > rather
> > > than
> > > just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of
the
> > voice
> > > part
> > > whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success
to
> fit
> > well
> > > defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly
I IV I
> to
> > the
> > > melodies with their bass lines.
> > > >> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just
the
> > upper
> > > part
> > > >> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal
and
> > > >> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente,
> Falconierio
> > et
> > > al. It
> > > >> also works very well in practice. We should not always
aim
> to
> > > smooth
> > > >> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century
> arrangers
> > > sometimes
> > > >> attempted.
> > > It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does
not
> make
> > > sense.
> > > The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and
occurs
> > > frequently
> > > in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension
in
> the
> > > guitar part -
> > > because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give
me
> an
> > > instance
> > > where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that
you
> think
> > they
> > > should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the
bass
> > when
> > > the melody
> > > has f-c.
> > > >
> > > > Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would
> coincide,
> > > while
> > > > with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty.
> > > The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note
and
> > harmony
> > > is.
> > > It has nothing to do with the alfabeto.
> > > Regards
> > > Monica
> > > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > >
> [1][1][5][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
[2][6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
[7][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 2.
[8][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 2.
[14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 3.
>
[15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 4.
[16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 5. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 6. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 7. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 8. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
