Thanks Monica,
I'm really not saying these things are guitars - simply that the
possibility exists that they are - or are not!
And, yes, I don't rely on Tyler's opinions and have read Meucci's
article and agree with much of what he says.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 16:02
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
> a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
> publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as "lo Strumento della Chitarra
a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana". It is a 4-course
instrument
with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa che
in
esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del
Liuto". He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for in
the
Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had
to be imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not
in common use in northern Italy.
Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the "Lauten" and
"Quintern";
the quintern is a small lute.
Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
are also probably for a "Chitarrina alla Napoletana" - they are
notated in "Spanish" tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things called
Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars. Unfortunately James Tyler
hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the
4-course guitar isn't very helpful.
Monica
> --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
> guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex Eisenhardt"
> <[5]eisenha...@planet.nl>, "R. Mattes" <[6]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
> Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
>
> We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
> Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only
one
> year
> after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
> about
> 1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions
was
> printed
> in 1640.
> I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the
> chitarra
> spagnuola and had it in mind
> when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst
the
> instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I
> can't
> see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely
a
> small
> lute?
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
> <[3][9]eisen...@planet.nl>; "R.
> Mattes" <[4][10]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
> guitar
> [was Re: Capona?]}
> >
> >
> > Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider:
> 'albeit
> > later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources
are
> not
> > contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right
they
> do
> > not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point
is
> that
> > plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
> (Foscarini)
> > and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available
> evidence
> > to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he
> allowed
> > the guitar in basso continuo.......
> >
> > MH
> >
> > --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes <[5][11]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
wrote:
> >
> > From: R. Mattes <[6][12]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
> Agazzari
> > guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][13]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
> "Vihuelalist"
> > <[8][14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, [9][15]eisen...@planet.nl
> > Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
> >
> > On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
> > > Thanks Lex
> > >
> > > Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the
guitar
> was
> > > not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
> > > convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC
> using
> > > full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even
some,
> > > allbeit later, sources
> > > (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on
playing
> > > guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style.
> > Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable
sources
> > for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
> > using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for
Johann
> > Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
> > Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early
> baroque
> > continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more
> careful
> > in what sources we draw our information from.
> > Cheers, Ralf Mattes
> > > Corbetta in
> > > his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
> > > restrained: using plucking play with the occasional
strummed
> chord.
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1][10][16]eisen...@planet.nl
> > <[2][11][17]eisen...@planet.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: [3][12][18]eisen...@planet.nl
<[4][13][19]eisen...@planet.nl>
> > > Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
[VIHUELA]
> Re:
> > > Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > > To: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[5][14][20]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
> > "Vihuelalist"
> > > <[6][15][21]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
> > > It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of
counterpoint,
> the
> > > way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily.
In
> the
> > > end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use
of
> the
> > > guitar
> > > (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked
> chitarrina
> > could
> > > be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
> > > Lex
> > >
> > _______________________________________________________________
___
> > >
> > > Van: Martyn Hodgson
[mailto:[7][16][22]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
> > > Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
> > > Aan: Vihuelalist; [8][17][23]eisen...@planet.nl
> > > Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA]
Re:
> > Agazzari
> > > guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > > Thanks Lex.
> > >
> > > Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not
sure
> > > terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to
draw
> > > unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether
> Agazzari
> > > had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind
or
> the
> > > instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
> > >
> > > But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi
> purposefully
> > omit
> > > the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as
> suitable
> > > for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
> > > suggested that since he does not list the instrument
amongst
> those
> > > suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable
for
> > > continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled
out).
> > > However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and
> > > thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo
> > groupings......
> > >
> > > regards
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >
[9][18][24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > --
> > R. Mattes -
> > Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
> > [10][19][25]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> [20][26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@plane
t.nl
> > 2.
> [21][27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@plane
t.nl
> > 3.
> [22][28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@plane
t.nl
> > 4.
> [23][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@plane
t.nl
> > 5.
> >
> [24][30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 6.
> [25][31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 7.
> >
> [26][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 8.
> [27][33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@plane
t.nl
> > 9.
[28][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 10.
> [29][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-frei
burg.de
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
>
[36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 2.
[37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 3.
[38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 4.
[39]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
> 5.
[40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
> 6.
[41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
> 7.
>
[42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 8.
[43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 9.
[44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 10.
[45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 11.
[46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 12.
[47]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 13.
[48]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 14.
>
[49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 15.
[50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 16.
>
[51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 17.
[52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 18. [53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 19.
[54]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
> 20.
[55]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 21.
[56]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 22.
[57]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 23.
[58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 24.
>
[59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 25.
[60]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 26.
>
[61]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 27.
[62]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 28. [63]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 29.
[64]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
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6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
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63. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
64. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
