Dear Monica, Thanks for this. Further comments on MS D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum The numbering on the document (by the archivist?) is of folios - not pages or pdf pages - I think it better to use folios to avoid ambiguity (eg are your pdf pages in the correct folio sequence?). Folio 48 (presumably your pdf 49) is headed' Fundamenta Gytarra' (I now think a reading as 'Chytarra' is probably simply the scribe's elaborate flourish) Folio 48v (your 50?) is headed 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' The principal tuning (given between the first set of double bar lines) is for a six course mandora or five course gytarra. However, the low sixth course is only employed for the first few pieces (around 15% only of the entire collection) and the remaining pieces employ a five course instrument (whether a guitar or a mandora). Particularly relevant here is the Rondeau C. Loschi (Losy?) on 51V which employs the sixth course: however, the same piece is again written out later in the collection (Rondon f.75) but, tellingly, without the sixth course (g) and with the errant note simply replaced by the open third course. Precisely the same practice might have also been readily followed for the few earlier pieces (fol 48v to 57) by a player with only a five course instrument. Finally, F 96 actually has a table for guitar Alfabeto giving both the usual shorthand symbols and their tablature interpretation. This is followed (96v) by a piece in mixed notation employing both tablature and Alfabeto symbols (in fact, B, F and G). Whilst telling us nothing unambiguous about the instrument's shape, it is yet more weight to suggest a normal guitar shaped instrument of the period was expected for the Gytarra. Regarding the heading on 48v, this actually reads 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' (ie tuning of gytarra AND mandora) - not Cytarra A Mandore (perhaps the pdf is a poor copy?). This precise wording also clearly implies two different instruments but both having the same basic tuning for five courses - otherwise it would have been Gytarra aliter Mandora, or similar, to show that two different words were in that case referring to one and the same instrument. I, of course, understand that this says nothing explicit about the shape of the gytarra (Just because something is called a "cytarra" doesn't mean that it is a figure of eight shaped insturment), but I think it highly unlikely to be lute shaped like the mandora - else why have the two instruments at all? Accordingly, I think, on the balance of probabilities, that the gytarra was, indeed, probably shaped differently to the lute - and most likely as contemporary guitar ................. We may simply have to agree to disagree over this. Further comments on Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course guitar I had thought, following our earlier discussion those few years back, that you agreed that eighteenth century placement of the octave strings might well not be the same as the earlier seventeenth century usage. But let me stress: this is not really just about a 'satisfactory bass line' (and you know that we agree that this is not a necessary feature of much seventeenth century guitar music) but more to do with the rather different musical style and texture of the later (early/mid) eighteenth century period. Regarding the placing of the high octave string on the bass side as general eighteenth practice (several 18th century sources indicate this explicitly suggests that it was the standard way of stringing), the only source from the early eighteenth century (the rough date of D-189) which suggests this are Stradivari's (c. 1700) instructions which, in my view, reflects earlier seventeenth century practice. The placement of the octave string on the lower courses was raised in my earlier about MS D-189 because, since we do know the placement of octaves on the mandora (ie on the treble side of a course), this source therefore adds some further weight to the placing of these on the instrument(s) expected for this music Finally and again, we may have to agree to disagree: - in this case about central/northern European guitar tuning in the eighteenth century for music like that in D189 as well as the interesting works by Diesel and others....................... Best wishes for 2018. Martyn ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2018, 15:12 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Martyn, Ralf and anyone else who is interested First of all, the instrument referred to as a "Cytarra" or "Gytarra" on p.49 of the pdf (it's easiest to refer to these rather than the original folio numbers) appears to have 5 stopped courses and one unstopped bass string. If that is the case it is not a 5-course guitar. This should really be referred to as either chitarra (Italian) or guitarra (Spanish). Some of the tablature pieces are for a 5-course instrument with a sixth open bass. The tuning chart on p.50 is for the "Cytarra A Mandore" which suggests to me that they are one and the same insrument â a 5-course instrument with 7 unstopped basses. The piece in tablature which follows is for this configuration. Just because something is called a "cytarra" doesn't mean that it is a figure of 8 shaped instrument. The tuning chart on p. 97 â ignoring the first interval â the first three intervals are the standard unison intervals of French tuning checks; however the last one indicates that the fifth course is in unison with the 3rd course stopped at the 2nd fret. There is no indication that there is a low octave string on the 5th course. The first interval is odd; the first course can't be in unison with the 3rd course stopped at the 5th fret. I can't really read the heading â but I wonder if it is Accord a whatever the Czech word for unison is. As for placing the high octave strings on the thumb side of a course â Ruiz de Ribayaz mentions this in "Luz y Norte musical (1677). The fact that several 18th century sources indicate this explicitly suggests that it was the standard way of stringing â regardless of whether to our ears today this creates a satisfactory bass line. It is all a matter of how you strike the strings. Having the high string on the thumb side enables you to use the high octave string on its own more easily as Corrette indicates. A happy New Year to everyone. Monica ----Original Message---- From: [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: 04/01/2018 11:33 To: "[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "[4]dshos...@mac.com" <[5]dshos...@mac.com> Cc: "VihuelaList"<[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Baroque Lute List" <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Monica, Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago - partly in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth (and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early guitar. ning?....) around this time. I was especially interested in the stated link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and possible implications for placement of the high octave strings on the fourth (and fifth?) course. This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon, and the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the five course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'. Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et Mandora' which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the identical tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e. Especially note that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even the extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave stringing indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements can be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or what arrangement for bass stringing.. This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass course (presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course (notated by numbers 6 through to 12): g, f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or b (Bb), a. However only the first musical example employs these additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to illustrate the practice. Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial Diesel. It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So I wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to the 5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side. This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's works [8]http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicolog y_Today-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-r200 4-t1-s77-95.pdf Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course guitar The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass' side of the five course are all eighteenth century: principally Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing into the eighteenth century ...... The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French (aka Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading etc - conversely it can also do exactly the opposite! My view is that for much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting from a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble and bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the bass string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the 'bass' side of the guitar This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the 'Losy' guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the style and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of a subjective judgement........... Martyn From: "[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: [11]dshos...@mac.com Cc: VihuelaList <[12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, 3 January 2018, 20:28 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript
The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar. There are a few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly in lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the music is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today? The rest seems to be for mandora or gallichon. Martyn may know more about it if he has read this. Monica ----Original Message---- From: [13]dshos...@mac.com Date: 03/01/2018 19:02 To: "WALSH STUART"<[14]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Cc: "VihuelaList"<[15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Monica Hall" <[16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript Sorry, letâs try a dropbox: [17]https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf ?dl=0 <[18]https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pd f?dl=0> > On Jan 3, 2018, at 1:57 PM, WALSH STUART <[19]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > On 1/3/2018 5:07 PM, DANIEL SHOSKES wrote: >> Ià ¢Ã¢ ¬Ã¢ ¢ve come across the Moravsky manuscript which is an interesting mix of bandora, baroque guitar, à ¢Ã¢ ¬Ã6 string/courseà ¢Ã¢ ˆ guitar and other works in standard notation. Much music of Losy (Logy). >> >> A link is here: [20]http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271 <[21]http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271> > > I get the following message: > > You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. > > > >> >> If anyone has info on the Ms, Ià ¢Ã¢ ¬Ã¢ ¢d like to ask the following: >> >> 1) On page 48 there is a page of tuning for guitar and mandora. While note values aren't given for the guitar the sixth course for the mandora is a G and that seems to work for the guitar pieces. Is there evidence for a 6 course guitar that Losy composed for? I've tried them on my Romantic guitar just playing the E string stopped at the 3rd fret. >> >> 2) Any sources for the tuning that Losy used? Switching between the Romatic guitar and my baroque guitar in re-entrant tuning some pieces seem better suited to one of the other. >> >> 3) How clear are the attributions to Losy? I did find one Rondeau that says Logi but appears in the Haslemere lute MS attributed to Weiss and in another attributed to von Bohrenfels. >> >> 4) None of the guitar works have strumming indications. All plucked or would the performance practice to be strum away? >> >> Thanks >> >> Danny >> >> >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > [23]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > -- -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:dshos...@mac.com 5. mailto:dshos...@mac.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95.pdf 9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 10. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 11. mailto:dshos...@mac.com 12. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 13. mailto:dshos...@mac.com 14. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 15. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 16. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 17. https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0 18. https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0 19. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 20. http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271 21. http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 23. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
