From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 10:07
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
   - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Monica,
   Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down
   to find it......
   Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would you now
   please
   simply and, is it too much to hope, politely answer the direct question
   put to you.
   As carefully explained, this will provide you with the opportunity to
   properly
   clarify your precise position over the instruments required for the
   pieces in this
   MS and will then enable a constructive reply to be composed.
   Here's the relevant question again:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position
   is that the vast
   majority (about 98%) of  the some 124 works for plucked instruments in
   this MS
   are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora
   (according to
   you a twelve course instrument with  five fingered courses and
   seven free
   basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
   Is this still a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute
   family
   instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such messages are
   therefore
   entirely relevant on that list.  If the mandora were a guitar I
   wouldn't.
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
   - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Martyn
   The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I
   sent to the Vihuela List  on the 31st January.
   I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT
   CAREFULLY.  It is the second down below your latest message.
   Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say
   about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking
   about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas.
   Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I
   received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't
   think that anyone on that list  interested in anything you have to
   say.  I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit
   to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist.
   As ever
   Monica
   ==================================================
   ----Original Message----
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 09/02/2018 16:43
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a
   fresh tack! 2
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     To: "[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>;
   VihuelaList
     <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
     <[8]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
     Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack!
   2
    Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to
   enable me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now
   confirm precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required
   for the pieces in this MS.
   In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
     '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
     Is this a correct statement of your position?
     regards
     Martyn
     PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
   lute   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!

   =================================================================
     ----- Forwarded Message -----
     From: Martyn Hodgson <[9]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     To: Monica Hall <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
     <[11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
     <[12]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
     Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
     Dear Monica,
     As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
     mailings since these had both ended by saying that you
    'were going to leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as
   meaning I might soon expect something further.  Accordingly,
   not wishing to respond in a piecemeal and disjointed manner,
   I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts.
   However, I shall do so now.

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
     generally copy things to other of   Wayne's lists if they're
   relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar)
    can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
   not a fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..........

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
     each other of our respective cases   and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps
   and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and
   source evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective
   positions:
       - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
     that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven  free basses -  you stated that  "The
    mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
       - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
     mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally
   for gytarra (although,as I was at pains to point out earlier, any
   passably
   competent mandora player would easily be able to add a low sixth where
   suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist
   would
   be able to play the errant low bass an  octave up by employing the open
    third course). The couple of pieces which have the seven
   additional free
    basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated
   in the usual
    register and, whilst we've not discussed this so far, I believe these
   additional
   low course numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two
   pieces
    (note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half
   way through
   the piece numbered 45! ).

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. DATE OF D-189
    You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in
   the eighteenth
   century"  - but with no  evidence for this assertion. I do, of course,
   understand
   why you favour such a  wide range of dates since it may help give some
   credence to employing a six course guitar (developed, in fact, only
   later in the
   eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably
   earlier, including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) -
   'vor1700
   geschrieben' (written  before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed
   to C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate
   for compilation of this
   MS lies between 1690and 1720.

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
     Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identified
     made between 1688 and 1780   (most are listed in Dieter Kirsch's 'La
   mandora au XVIII siecle): the vast majority (97%) of these are six
   course
   instruments but a couple have more courses - one is 8 course and one
   9 course . These two are both later eighteenth century and thus too
   late
   to be the sort of instruments originally employed for D-189.  Extant
   instruments
   also well reflect contemporary iconography showing the overwhelming
   predominance of the six course mandora; and similarly with extant
   tablatures
   - though a very few do contain some pieces for 8 or 9 course mandora
   (such as Univerzitna   Kniznica Bratislava Ms 1092 which contains
   galant/classical music c.1770 requiring a mandora with eight courses).
   Note that these mandoras basically had these few additional courses on
   the
   same peghead (like earlier lutes) and did not employ the much longer
    extensions as found in the theorbo, archlute or, for that matter, the
   arch/theorboed guitar known from the seventeenth century onwards.
     Historically, the upper five courses of the usual six
   course mandora/callichon
   were tuned in precisely the same intervals as those of the guitar. The
   mandora
   sixth course was commonly tuned a tone below the fifth (as, of course,
   found
   in D-189), or a third or a fourth below it. Tablatures show that the
   additional
   basses of the rare 8/9 course instrument merely fill in the notes
   between the
   fifth course and the sixth a third or a fourth below it and do not
   extend the range
   any further downwards.

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     3. ACCORDO GYTARRA ET MANDORA
     The tablature system with five lines on f.48v. between the
   first double bar
   lines gives octave tuning checks in the usual manner. It shows that the
   upper
   five courses of the gytarra and mandora were  tuned in the same
   intervals with
   an extra course indicated below the line for the usual six
   course mandora of the
   period (the six course guitar not then being known). The telling
   example of the
   Rondeau (C. Loschi), originally for a six course instrument
   but later arranged for
   just five courses (Rondon 75), very well illustrates the differences
   required in
   intabulating the same work for the six  course mandora and the five
   course gytarra.
   The staff after this has numbers below for an instrument with
   seven additional bass
   courses - but only two intabulated pieces out of a total of 124 works
   have had these
    numbers added. I therefore believe that this section was added later -
   perhaps
   when a novel theorboed guitar was acquired (again note that the scribe
   couldn't be
   bothered with adding these new low basses all the way through piece
   45).

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------

     4. SIX COURSE GUITAR IN BOHEMIA, MORAVIA AND AUSTRIA IN THE
   EIGHTEENTH   CENTURY
     Six course guitars first appeared in Southern Spain in the 1760s
   and a little later
   in Italy in a six string form, but only appear in German speaking lands
   from the
   1780s (the earliest extant one being by Michael Ignaz Stadlmann, Vienna
   1787).
   In c.1810. the Viennese guitarist Simon Molitor also tells us that
   around 1790 the
   guitar entered Austria 'where earlier it had been very rarely seen' and
   that at the
   same time a sixth string/course was added.
     As an aside, Molitor also tells of meeting a mandora player
   inVienna (perhaps
   Joseph Zincke?) around 1800  (they were still around then!)  who said
   that he now
   used  single strings instead of  double courses since he found it
   easier to tune...........

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     5. CONCLUSIONS
     5.1. A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve courses
   never existed
     and, indeed, even the rare mandoras with up to a maximum of
   three basses are
   not known in the period covered by the dating of  D-189.  Accordingly,
   the most
   likely, and reasonable, identification of the couple of works for an
   instrument with
   seven extra basses is the arch/theorboed guitar.
     5.2. The six course guitar is not known in the period covered
   by this collection
   (est. 1690 - 1720) and thus could not have been the instrument employed
   for the
   pieces requiring a sixth course.
     5.3. The tuning chart  'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' gives the
   octave checks for
   tuning instruments with up to six courses, and thus serves for the
   upper five courses
   of both the gytarra and the mandora  - but only the mandora for the
   sixth course .

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   6. Finally, when I first came across this MS some years ago,
   I wondered if Gytarra
   (or Chytarra) might be a colloquial Bohemian/Moravian synonym for the
   Mandora.
   But there was no independent supporting evidence and, moreover,
   strongly against
   this proposition is the precise wording of 'Accordo Gytarra et
   Mandora'  (ie tuning
   of gytarra AND mandora)  which requires two clearly different
   instruments - but both
   having the same basic tuning for five courses. As mentioned
   earlier, if it had said
    ' Gytarra aliter Mandora'  (or similar) things might
   be different.......................
     regards
     Martyn
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   --
    PS Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f. 69v) for Mandora
   1  and 2 does not employ the sixth course:  perhaps the composer
   preferred   this particular piece with these instruments this way or
     maybe they didn't have two guitars available?  The last is not as
   daft   as it may seem: at this time the mandora was immensely popular
   in
   this   part of the world with almost all known mandora makers  working
   in
   this area of Bohemia, Moravia, upper Austria and South Bavaria (roughly
    bounded by Wurzburg, Innsbruck, Linz and Prague) - see Kirsch.
   MS sources with   music for mandora outnumber those for guitar from
   this
   area.  Also note Molitor's report.
     Similarly, regarding f. 48r with the 'Fundamenta Gytarra',
   this simply
     contains common thoeretical information for beginners as frequently
     found in tablature books from these lands. They generally (as with
   D-189)
   cover the generic principles of notation (tablature letters), time
   signatures,
   note values   and tablature flags, ornaments, etc. and, as in this
   case, apply to
   all the plucked instruments represented in the following tablatures -
   here the
   mandora, gytarra, and theorboed guitar. Obviously, a seperate
   'Fundamenta'
   page is not needed for each plucked instrument represented in the same
   MS!
     The practical information overleaf ('Accordo Gytarra et
   Mandora') gives the
   more specific information on tuning, etc.

     MH
     ====================================================================
     From: "[13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     To: VihuelaList <[15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Cc: Martyn Hodgson <[16]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
     Sent: Wednesday, 31 January 2018, 20:41
     Subject: CZ-Bm D 189 unpicked
     Martyn à ¢ RE: CZ-Bm D 189 My Response to Your Message of 29th
   January
     I will try to to be concise and stick to the point. I have deleted
     sections from Martyn's message which I think are irrelevant and
     rearranged some of his comments to achieve a more logical appraisal
   of
     the  manuscript.
     1.    General Background
     The manuscript belonged to and was presumably copied by someone at
   the
     Benedictine Monastery in Rajhrad, a town in Brno-Country District in
     Moravia.  I have not been able to trace a detailed bibliographical
     description of it and  I have not been able to check RISM but even
     entries in RISM are not always reliable. I have not seen the
   manuscript
     myself and I don't think that Martyn has either. A copy, however
   good,
     still leaves a lot of unanswered questions. The manuscript includes,
     among other things, didactic material, arrangements of vocal and
     instrumental pieces by Lully, other vocal music, a sonata for
   trombone
     and music for viola da gamba. Some of the headings and text are in
     Latin, some in Czech or German. I don't know if anyone has
   identified
     any of the other pieces but it would be necessary to do this before
     deciding on a possible date for the manuscript.
     2.    Date
     Martyn's comment -
     "1. DATE OF D-189
     You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the
     eighteenth century" - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do,
   of
     course, understand why you favour such a wide range of dates since
   it
     may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
     (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all
   the
     plucked works in this collection".
     My comment à ¢
     I have NEVER suggested throughout this discussion that either of the
     tablature charts or any of the music in this manuscript are for 6-
     course early classical guitar. I pointed this out in my private e-
   mail
     to Martyn but he has ignored this and most of the rest of what I
   have
     said. This is a clear indication that he has not read my messages
     before replying to them.
     Martyn's comment -
     "However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
     including:James Tyler - 'early 18th century';Gary Boye - 'beginning
   of
     the 18th century';Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700); Jaroslav
     Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor 1700
     geschrieben' (written before 1700)".
     My comment -
     Pohlman and Pohanska's writings out of date and not entirely
   accurate.
     Tyler and Gary Boye are probably just copying what these previous
     writers have said.
     Martyn's comment à ¢
     "My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed
   to
     C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720. Accordingly, to summarise, the best date
     range estimate for compilation of this MS lies between 1690 and
   1720".
     My comment à ¢
     You cannot date manuscripts in this way.  Losy died in 1721.
   However,
     there is no reason to suppose that the manuscript was copied during
   his
     lifetime. Music by Corbetta was still being copied fifty years after
     his death. Likewise, Losy's music would still have been popular
   twenty,
     thirty or more years after his death. Stylistic traits are no guide
   to
     dating.  As somebody said recently on the Lute List
     "As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be
     avoided because it cannot be valid evidence".
     There is nothing distinctively early 18th century about the music,
   most
     of which is quite trivial.
     Perhaps, Dear Martyn, you should do a course in Musicology!
     Ewa BieliÃ
   ska-Galas, the most recent person to refer to the
   manuscript,
     says in her article only that it is 18th century. She refers to it
   as a
     manuscript of music for the mandora and has indicated in her table
   that
     both versions of the Losy pieces are for mandora.
     3.    The Tablature charts
     f.48v    Fundamenta Gytarra
     In his message of 4th of January Martyn said
     "folio 48 à ¢Ã ¦..gives elementary instructions for the five course
   guitar
     '
     Fundamenta Chytarra'".
     I pointed out that the heading is actually Fundamenta "Gytarra".
   This
     is the only instrument mentioned in the heading. I think Martyn is
     mistaken in claiming that these instructions are intended for a 5-
     course guitar.
     They are instructions on how to read tablature. The first segment
     between the double bars shows the open courses of a SIX- course
     instrument represented by letter "a".  These are clearly labeled  1-
   6
     in descending order with the "a" for sixth  open course placed below
     the tablature stave in the last bar.  This clearly refers to the
     "Gytarra"; no other instrument is mentioned. This is followed by
     segments illustrating the five stopped courses at the 1st-9th fret
     represented by the letter b-k. There are also the signs for
   ornaments,
     time signatures and note values.
     f.48v    Accordo Gytarra et Mandora
     Martyn's comment on this was  Ã ¢
     "3. ACCORDO GYTARRA ET MANDORA
     The tablature system with five lines on f.48v. between the first
   double
     bar lines gives octave tuning checks in the usual manner.  It shows
     that the upper five courses of the gytarra and mandora were tuned in
     the same intervals with an extra course indicated below the line for
     the usual six course mandora of the period (the six course guitar
   not
     then being known)". à ¢Ã ¦.. for the six course mandora and the five
   course
     gytarra. The staff after this has numbers below for an instrument
   with
     seven additional bass courses - but only two intabulated pieces out
   of
     a total of 124 works have had these numbers added. I therefore
   believe
     that this section was added later - perhaps when a novel theorboed
     guitar was acquired (again note that the scribe couldn't be bothered
     with adding these new low basses all the way through piece 45)".
     My comment à ¢
     I think Martyn is mistaken. It is clear from the chart on f.48r that
     the "Gytarra" is a 6-course instrument. It may be synonymous with
   the
     6-
     course mandora which Martyn says was common at the time.  It is also
     clear that the section between the first two double bar lines on f.
   48v
     is a tuning check for the 6-course "Gytarra" on f.48r; the last bar
     shows that the open bass is tuned to the same note as the third
   course.
     The second section on the first stave shows the additional bass
   courses
     of the "Mandora" numbered 6-12 starting with G.
     The Aria on the second and third staves is an example of how the low
     basses are notated with figures below the stave. Without seeing the
     manuscript itself it is not possible to tell whether any of this was
     added at a later date but I don't think that it was because the
   Minuet
     which starts on the fourth stave continues on the next folio à ¢ f.
   49r.
     The copyist is unlikely to have left two staves blank before copying
     the minuet.
     I do think that the open basses may have been added to the piece on
   f.
     90r (I can't read the title) at a later date. They have only been
   added
     to the first part of the piece and seem  to overlap in places with
   the
     letters on the tablature stave.
     The material question is  - "What do the terms "Gytarra" and
   "Mandora"
     refer to in this context?"
     Martyn seems to think that as there are all these instruments in
     museums identified today as "mandoras" any mention of a "mandora" in
     any archival document must refer to an instrument of this kind.
     It ain't necessarily so.  There are often references in manuscripts
   and
     in literary texts to instruments, the identity of which is uncertain
   in
     the absence of illustrations or more detailed information.  What
   people
     called these things in the past may be different from the way we
     classify surviving specimens today.
     One  example that springs to mind is Mrs Jordan's "lute" which is
     apparently really a kind of "arch cittern".
     It seems to me that these two instruments may belong to a very broad
     genus of lute shaped instruments with added basses but their precise
     identity is uncertain.
     4.    The Music
     Martyn's comment à ¢
     "Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions: - as I
     understand it from what you have written, your position is that the
     vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments
     in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for
   a
     mandora" (according to you a twelve course instrument with five
     fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The
   mandora
     has seven unstopped basses" );
     - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
     mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
     principally for gytarra à ¢Ã ¦.."
     My comment
     Looking through and playing the music à ¢ which took a considerable
     amount of time à ¢ a number of ideas occurred to me, some of which I
     discarded as I went along. What I said in my final message to the
   list
     was
     The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for the "Gytarra"; those from f.60r-
   f.
     76r are for a 5-course "Mandora"; and those from f.76v-f.95r
   numbered
     1-
     56 are probably for 5-course guitar.
     Martyn said à ¢
     "PS Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f. 69v) for
   Mandora 1
     and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the composer
   preferred
     this particular piece with these instruments this way or maybe they
     didn't have two guitars available? "
     This is disingenious.  Martyn claimed that -
     "Simply overlooked is that the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in
     Keys wher e low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the
     following keys of G, F. Cand D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the
     upper octave:"
     "a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not not of the period
     mandora, etc."
     My comment
     The material point is that this piece is clearly labeled as being
   for
     two "mandoras" and there are skips of a 7th in the bass line.  This
   is
     unavoidable on a 5-course instrument in the key of D major and all
   the
     pieces with this feature are in D major. It is not a feature only of
     the guitar. With this in mind it seems reasonable to assume that the
   5-
     course pieces are for a 5-course "mandora" up to and including f.
   76r.
     The pieces which follow form a separate section.
     Martyn's comments on the six-course guitar in Eastern Europe are
     irrelevant as I have NEVER suggested that anything in the manuscript
     refers to a six-course guitar.
     5.    Conclusions
     Martyn's comment
     "5.1. A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve courses never
     existed and, indeed, even the rare mandoras with up to a maximum of
     three basses are not known in the period covered by the dating of D-
     189. Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable, identification of
     the couple of works for an instrument with seven extra basses is the
     arch/theorboed guitar".
     My comment à ¢
     I think this is a very rash statement. The manuscript is undated. To
     claim that the instrument with seven extra bases is an
   arch/theorboed
     guitar is foolhardy.  References to the theorboed guitar are few and
     far between (are there any in Eastern Europe sources?) and often
     ambiguous.  It is not clear in many instances (including the
     Stradivarius patterns) whether instruments referred to as a chitarra
     atiorbata are lute shaped or figure of eight shaped. There was an
     interesting mention on the lute list of a "citara tiorbata" in a
   piece
     in P.P. Melli's Balletto del Ardito Gracioso (1616) which appears to
     be  a kind of cittern. One of the Stradivarius patterns is referred
   to
     as being for the "citara tiorbata".
     Clearly there were small lutes with up to seven basses aka mandoras.
     James Talbot's manuscript (GB:Och Ms.1187) dating from the end of
   the
     17th century includes a description of an instrument  owned by John
     Shore which Talbot refers to as "Mr Shore's abridgmt of Arch Lute".
     This had six courses on the fingerboard, the lowest octave strung,
   the
     third, fourth and fifth double strung in unison and the first and
     second, single strings, with seven single open basses descending
     stepwise from the lowest course.  Talbot supplies detailed
     specifications for the instrument.  The length of the strings on the
     fingerboard is given as 48.3 cms. and that of the open basses as
   108.0
     cms.  He indicates that the first course is tuned to c'' which is
     compatible with the string length of 48.3 cms.  The instrument had
     nine frets. Donald Gill classifies this as an "arch-mandore". There
   is
     no reason why the copyist of CZ-Bm D 189 should not have owned an
     instrument of this kind and called it a "mandora".
     Martyn's comment à ¢
     "5.2. The six course guitar is not known in the period covered by
   this
     collection (est. 1690 - 1720) and thus could not have been the
     instrument employed for the pieces requiring a sixth course".
     My comment à ¢
     For the THIRD TIME - I have NEVER suggested that it was.
     Martyn's comment -
     "5.3. The tuning chart 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' gives the octave
     checks for tuning instruments with up to six courses, and thus
   serves
     for the upper five courses of both the gytarra and the mandora - but
     only the mandora for the sixth course".
     My comment à ¢
     That is not their clearly stated purpose or what they actually
     illustrate.
     Finally, Dear Martyn à ¢ in my view it is ill-mannered of you to
   persist
     in copying your messages to the Baroque Lute List when it has caused
     problems for other people. Nothing you have to say is so important
   that
     it needs to appear twice and if you were hoping that someone else
   would
     join the fray to back you up you must have realized by now that they
     are not going to.  Perhaps I should start copying my messages as
   well à ¢
     I wonder what Wayne would think of that if he knew what was going
   on.
     As ever
     Monica
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References

   1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   6. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   8. mailto:baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  11. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  12. mailto:baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  13. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  14. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  15. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  16. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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