See how causality is protected in LENR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote: > All the mesons produce will be identically the same. This is seen in the > Holmlid meson decay timing. All the mesons hit the detector at the same > instant. > > Should read > > All the mesons produce will be identically the same. This is seen in the > Holmlid meson decay timing. All the mesons *decay products* hit the > detector at the same instant. > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> "one might expect to see a spectrum of EM radiation from the Holmlid >> setup." >> >> All the mesons produce will be identically the same. This is seen in the >> Holmlid meson decay timing. All the mesons hit the detector at the same >> instant. >> >> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> The vacuum may well be involved. When a meson is produced, a negative >>> energy version of the meson must also be produced via a closed time loop. >>> But this negative energy version(or anti particle) is sent back in time via >>> the vacuum. This particle in the past must be discarded to preserve >>> causality. So the vacuum act like a trash can to take care of the bad stuff >>> produced by the LENR reaction. >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Bob Cook <frobertc...@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Fran and Jones-- >>>> >>>> Thanks for those explanations. >>>> >>>> However, I would bet that the US Patent Office would not agree with >>>> such an invention, if zero point energy were mentioned. They would >>>> classify in the same category as perpetual motion machines. >>>> >>>> Nevertheless, I understand from Fran’s comment that the positive >>>> kinetic energy “motion” of virtual particles in the vacuum are harnessed to >>>> provide potential energy to make heavy hydrogen, which in turn decays to a >>>> lower energy state via real EM radiation. If the heavy hydrogen increased >>>> its size by increasing the kinetic energy of its electron, it would be an >>>> endothermic reaction I think and not what we are talking about. Is this >>>> correct? >>>> >>>> The endless reversible reaction Fran suggested would not seem to entail >>>> the release of EM radiation to heat the real surroundings, if energy is >>>> conserved between the vacuum and the real surroundings in a reversible >>>> reaction. >>>> >>>> One other thought/question considering this thread—what dense hydrogen >>>> energy levels are involved in the reaction? The lowest energy state and >>>> the highest one? or are there transitions between any of the dense hydrogen >>>> states? If it were transitions between various energy states, one might >>>> expect to see a spectrum of EM radiation from the Holmlid setup. >>>> >>>> Bob Cook >>>> >>>> *From:* Roarty, Francis X <francis.x.roa...@lmco.com> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 29, 2015 12:08 PM >>>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>> *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Re: Casimir, ZPE and Holmlid >>>> >>>> >>>> [snip] But in effect, if the hydrogen does not escape, the energy >>>> which can be extracted by chemistry is endless (if the source is the >>>> quantum vacuum).[/snip] which is why I tend to call it zero point energy >>>> since it is effectively harnessing random motion to move the hydrogen >>>> between the DCE regions that allow this endless chemical reversible >>>> reaction. Still very similar to the original premise behind Lyne atomic >>>> furnace and the MAHG.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 29, 2015 2:53 PM >>>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>> *Subject:* EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Re: Casimir, ZPE and Holmlid >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Bob Cook >>>> >>>> Ø >>>> >>>> Ø Fran and Jones suggested that the source of the excess energy >>>> described by Holmlid is of a chemical origin (electronic potential >>>> chemical energy of dense hydrogen) and not nuclear potential energy long >>>> ago stored in the reactants. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> First part of answer: The Dynamical Casimir Effect was first observed >>>> in 2010. It is real, but that does not necessarily provide all the answers. >>>> The following is paraphrased from various sources. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The basic concept for LENR, is that the electronic chemical energy of >>>> dense hydrogen, with mass-energy in the range of 630 eV per H atom, is >>>> created by DCE. One way this can happen is when SPP interact with a Casimir >>>> cavity or pit. The electron becomes delocalized and possibly relativistic. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> However, it is also demonstrated by Holmlid that dense hydrogen can >>>> produce strong nuclear or sub-nuclear gain in other circumstances, aside >>>> from chemistry. Whenever gamma radiation is seen in an experiment, it is a >>>> good indication of the “other circumstances”. The DCE modality only applies >>>> to gain from chemistry and electron manipulation. The soft x-rays are easy >>>> to miss. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One of the predictions of modern quantum theory is that the vacuum of >>>> space is not empty. In fact, quantum theory predicts that it teems with >>>> virtual particles foaming in and out of existence. While initially a >>>> curiosity, it was quickly realized that vacuum fluctuations had measurable >>>> consequences, for instance producing the Lamb shift and modifying the >>>> magnetic moment for the electron… and in Casimir force. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This type of renormalization due to vacuum fluctuations is now central >>>> to our understanding of nature….From early on, it was believed that it >>>> might be possible to more directly observe the virtual particles that >>>> compose the quantum vacuum, or convert them to real particles. 40 years >>>> ago, Moore suggested that a mirror undergoing relativistic motion could >>>> convert virtual photons into directly observable real photons. This effect >>>> was later named the dynamical Casimir effect (DCE)…. we have observed the >>>> DCE experimentally for the first time in 2011…. In addition to observing >>>> the creation of real photons, the discoverers found two-mode squeezing of >>>> the emitted radiation, which is a signature of the quantum character of the >>>> generation process. End of paraphrase. >>>> >>>> Ø >>>> >>>> Ø Is the assumption that the laser pre-conditioning of the materials >>>> in the Holmlid setup allowed the increase in potential energy of the >>>> reactants which then is later released as EM radiation and hence heat? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. Most likely there would be a multi-stage process where the laser >>>> (or another light source) creates SPPs over time, which then interact with >>>> hydrogen in a Casimir cavity of 2-12 nm in dimensions. As it turns out, >>>> Shell 105 catalyst is extraordinarily nanoporous. Like a zeolite, but >>>> ferromagnetic. Curiously, Holmlid fails to realize this porosity >>>> connection. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The net effect is that the electron which once had ionization potential >>>> of 13.6 eV in the ground state has been boosted to 630 eV of binding energy >>>> by the DCE. This is an energy increase of about 46:1 per atom and it is >>>> chemical. But in effect, if the hydrogen does not escape, the energy which >>>> can be extracted by chemistry is endless (if the source is the quantum >>>> vacuum). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >
